Sunday, November 25, 2007

Fooling Some of the People All of the Time

Yes, I spoke to this yesterday but this photo and Harper's most recent statements simply exacerbated an issue that already had me annoyed.

There is no mistaking the look on Steve's face is there? That's a face that as my mother used to say, "I'd love to slap". The smugness speaks to precisely what this man has done. He has managed, at this point in time at least, to bring the Climate Change debate to where he was when he was in Opposition.

Harper is claiming that he didn't stand alone on the issue of aspirational targets. I suppose technically he can make that claim because initially Australia was with him, but Howard is gone now, (thank gawd) and Rudd is going to sign Kyoto. The way Harper makes his claim insinuates that many countries joined him. From all reports that is a lie.

He claims Canada's stance is the only right one. It indeed is RIGHT in terms of the political spectrum, but it's wrong according to every credible expert on the planet.

Finally, he wrapped up by saying that Kyoto was a mistake. Well, we've always known that is what he truly believes but in making that statement now, it's quite clear what he intends to do in Bali.

That said, in this country both he and Baird have said they will not withdraw from Kyoto. Can you spell hypocrisy? Straddling two logs in the ocean is what he is presenting as a position. Ridiculous.

What is so perplexing in all of this is that this one man is derailing years of work in the International community and he's proud of it. With allies falling away, Howard and Bush, he I suppose sees himself as the new champion of the far right Conservative agenda. He can ally Sarkozy on some points, but not this one.

He turns a fact on it's head and sells it. Luntz, Rove and many others? Pick your poison. That ideology and sales technique has been adopted by this government and is playing out just as it did in the US. In the US, I think the media was timid and lazy, but that was due to a result of fear, 9-11, blah, blah. Here? It's not laziness, it's the media being complicit. Of that I am convinced. On this issue however, there has been some good factual coverage. I'm encouraged by that, but a bit nervous that his "team" of spin will kidnap the media, once again and we will see this story wear another cloak.

I think Steve has been very clever, perhaps this will be his test in terms of how he and his friends can actually spin the facts. Accordingly, it will test the mettle of all media to keep him, Baird and others dealing with fact.

I'm angry that he has so far has been successful. The commonwealth countries went into this summit united. ALL countries save Canada and Australia were prepared to abide by targets, including India, yes people, India. Wasn't that a great endorsement to go to Bali with? Of course it was. Harper killed that clout.

Apparently this man does not care about his children and their children. Yes, I said it because it's true. I'll couch it by saying that I'm sure he is good to his children, but he is so damn political, so ideological, that he has inured himself from what he is bequeathing his children.

It's beyond tragic and my plea to all who will attend the Bali conference is, shut this man and his minions down.


wilson said...

INDIA??? India was going to abide by targets???

Not according to this report, in fact, it was BECAUSE of the need of India for consensus, that the wording had to be changed:

''...Just a few days ago at an Asian summit, India refused to endorse a resolution that called for it to strive toward undefined, so-called "aspirational" goals on greenhouse emissions.

But this week, the Indians and the entire 53-member Commonwealth did sign on to such an agreement.

Harper was a key player in making that happen, and some other countries were furious at Canada as a result.

To procure India's approval, the Commonwealth had to strip out any reference to binding targets in a resolution that had the support of almost any country...''

wilson said...

And while I'm at it, the new Aussie PM is on side with Harper:

'...Mr Rudd also flatly contradicted his environment spokesman and said a Labor government would not ratify the new round of Kyoto plans unless developing nations signed binding agreements.
"I have made absolutely clear that we would need to see clear-cut commitments from the major emitters from the developing world for us to become party to that agreement," he said.


Anonymous said...

Wilson get ready for an insult by Knb just the way I have been in another post. Here is that link that you are talking about.

Mary B.

wilson said...

The media does such a good job at telling half truths, it's hard to blame bloggers for reproducing and believing mis-info.
Well Mary, if PMSH is successful in getting China and the US to agree to sign on in Bali like he did India in Uganda, we will be treated to silence.

knb said...

Keep fishing Wilson. The ONLY detractors were Australia and Canada. Old news does not comport with the facts and contemporary news.

As for your report on Australia and Rudd,
I suggest you read his immediate pledges. Ratifying Kyoto is one.

I'm not going to provide links. There comes a point when you just laugh at the nonsense that is spewed, in spite of factual evidence. Contrarians can do there own honest homework.

Honest would be the key word there. Here's a link to a dictionary.

Anonymous said...

You know what Wilson? When Mr.S.Dion a few years back in Montreal when we had the climate summit with all those countries Dion agree to a deal that had some countries playing with different rules then the countries most developed.
This to me is crazy.

Just because we happened to be fortunate to be in one of the most wealthy countries of the world we need to be penalized for it. Even though countries like China emit more than us,has an example. It's like saying you take the Ottawa senators from the NHL in which they are the top of the leaque when they play they have to play 1 goal down from the start just to give the other team a chance.
This who the left calls Dion a leader give me a break please.

Mr.S.Harper gets 50 countries to agree with him and the left calls him a bully.I could understand if it was a superpower like the U.S.but Canada bulling other countries that are far more powerful then us. They have to be out of their minds. If they can be bullied by us Canada with 32 million people no wonder some of those countries are poor.
Go figure.

It is easy to have an agreement just agree to whatever other countries and thats all,but it takes courage to stand for what you believe just like what Harper has done at the meeting and still get the agreement .

Mary B.

wilson said...

Yes KNB, Rudd will ratify the OLD Kyoto, but will not sign on to a NEW Kyoto in Bali, unless, ALL the large emitters sign on, with targets.
There was no list of countries that were rejecting the wording at the Uganda summit. We know Canada, Australia and India said no. It was only reported that 'of the larger nations' Canada was a hold out.
You were wrong when you posted that India would agree to hard targets.

Jay said...


These conservatives are self serving pigs.

That includes the two gorgons above harping about something they have no idea of nor any desire to learn more about.

I can only hope they live near the coast and get what they don't believe is coming but probably rightly deserve.

wilson said...

Hi Mary.
Dion sees no problems in pitting provinces, regions and countries against each other.
Best example is the Canadian Wheat Board, a monopoly that only applies to Western grain farmers.(hardly Canadian eh) the Liberal government has even put Western farmers in jail for selling their grain outside the monopoly.
But in Ontario and Quebec, grain is your own property and you can sell it to any market you want.

Just ask Buzz what he thinks of Kyoto. The manufacturing industry is losing jobs by the bushel to the cheap China market. Can you imagine what Kyoto 11 will do to our mfg business if China doesn't have to invest in the same polution/ghg technolgy updates that Canada and the US has to??
And the British don't have a big mfg industry, they farm it out to other countries now, including China. So of course they are all gung-ho and can reach their targets.

Libs sure do make PMSH out to be all powerful! It's amusing.

The Gore's and Suzuki's have made fighting global warming hot!. It took them 17 years, but they have done it.
So for the boys and girls back home, the leaders want to look green. They all want to get re-elected.
PMSH will swim against the tide, when it's the right thing to do.

Anonymous said...

Wilson see these people if you don't agree with them they insult you.

Al Gore along with Bill Clinton when they were in power,what did they do for the environment? "Nothing"

Now of course that Al Gore isn't in power anymore suddenly he is concern about the planet. Thats right see he could say anything he wants now,because he doesn't answer to anyone anymore.

David Suzuki is an environmentalist he doesn't have to answer to the Canadian people now does he.

If the most powerful country on the planet (U.S.)couldn't bully a small country like Canada and others not to sign the Kyoto accord,then can someone please explain to me how can Harper bully other countries into agreeing to his terms.

When I hear/read about the left calling harper a bully it makes me laugh.

Mary B.

Anonymous said...

Contrarians can do there own honest homework.

Honest would be the key word there. Here's a link to a dictionary.

I suggest you start using that dictionary.

Anonymous said...

Can you believe the crappola coming out the mouths of the CRAP supporters.

Good grief, they are naive and dumb.

Funny, in US papers, one of the legacies they feel Bush will have is his total failure on the environment issues and that he contributed to the environmental mess - the largest emitter in the US is a power company connected with Bush.

Oh ya, Harper is a smart one - follow a total failure as a president is just to clever isn't it.

Anonymous said...

Crappola? nah, facts anon.

And now a list is slowly being reported of the opposing countries:
Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Trinidad, S Africa, India....


Jay said...

This is for you Sahron and Mary.

Like I said before. Read up on what you pretend to know about. You keep whining about India, well lets have a look at India (this is from another blog, Rolling Back the Tide of Extremism)

1. Most vehicles in India are motor bikes and scooters. Very good on gas. They have an all electric model on the market now too, meaning no gas and no emissions.

2. Every car in India -EVERY car - must have a sticker on its driver's side (right) headlight indicating it is a low emission vehicle, or the vehicle can't be sold or driven.

3. Most of the cars are less than 5 years old. It is rare to see an older one, with the exception of a original Indian model, which was made back in the 60's. It is a diesel, meaning it is already getting better milage than most gasoline cars AND can run on bio-diesel or unmodified vegetable oil if needed.

4. In India almost everything that is thrown away is recycled. In Mumbai, you can actually sell your garbage to people who will take it to recycling depots - there is a market for it. Old electronic components are stripped for there metals and usable parts - hell almost anything is stripped this way.

5. Being Environmentally Friendly is a huge advantage that Indian companies are using to lure more business. It is bad business for this grow, red hot economy to NOT be environmentally friendly.

6. Most gas in India is high grade, low emission fuel or diesel.

7. India is still emitting a small fraction of the GHG that we do. Companies here are actively investing and trying to create low emission alternatives because it is good for business.

You see Mary and Sharon, India is doing something and has been for awhile. All your bluster and whining is unwarranted. Had mr. Harper agreed to the binding limits they would have had India signing onto binding agreements as well. India wanted in this time and Harper blocked it.

You and your party are responsible for this. We could have had India at the table finally. Great job you kooks.

Jay said...

You are all liars.

Anonymous said...

Jay I think I'm repeating myself here. I said that if we are going to have hard targets it should be the same for all countries of the world not just some.Jay is it starting sink in your thick skull?

Mary B.

Anonymous said...

Jay it's not just India get it? All countries abide by the same targets!

"You are all liars".

Oh I love the way you people encourage discussion,by insulting?

If you have any backbone in you,you will apologize if not then you would have proved that your nothing but a jellyfish

Mary B.

Ryan said...

Wow. Angry rightwingers.

One question regarding Kyoto for you Conservatives.

If I'm buying clothing that I know for a fact is made with slave labour, do I still keep buying that clothing, simply because the people next door refuse to stop buying it? Do I keep buying it because clothing will still be made with slave labour? Or is it morally and ethically proper to wash our hands of the practice of slave labour?

Do we continue to pollute and contribute to global warming just because other countries refuse to stop? Even thought we KNOW it's going to have devastating consequences on the planet?

Additionally, knb, I think you sometimes leave out a sizable portion of Canadian voters. It's not so much that all of them are duped (which I'm sure that many are), it's also that many of them don't care. Do we really think voters for the most part are actually willing to make the lifestyle changes necessary to lower our carbon footprint? Are Canadians on a whole willing to take responsibility for their complicity in the industrialization of China and India due to our thirst for low quality, cheaply made goods?

Canada, the US and the other industrial giants don't have the gal to force caps on China and India because it'll hurt the bottom line of ultra-rich multinationals that hold them by a leash, so these jokers that suggest that Canada or anyone for that matter's refusing to ratify binding agreements out of principle is either silly or naive. They know they can't force China and India to sign on because those countries have a lot to lose, so it's simply to cover their own asses and inaction.

knb said...

Angry is a state of being for con's ryan.

I think Jay has done an admirable job at illustrating how they do not argue fact, they simply regurgitate Baird and Harpers talking points.

Thanks Jay for the info from the MoS blog.

Wilson, I was going on the press I had available. Jay has pointed out what in fact India is doing.

Harper himself said the only other hold out with him was Trinidad? Trinidad? LOL.

Stand proud wilson. You stand with the US, Trinidad and maybe the Czech Republic. Brilliant!

btw, Mary's name is John.

Jay said...

Mary T,
You are the dense one.

Each Canadian produces 25 tonnes of GHG each, Indians produce 5 tonnes each. They are producing much much less. Yet you expect these people to pay for your filthy ways? We put what GHG is there ourselves as industrialized countries. India and China are only beginning to start what we have already done but somehow you expect them to clean up ours? While at the same time trying to adapt and prevent the huge mistake we made.

Instead of taking your share of the blame you want to hide behind the fact we have a huge country and small population to justify consuming WAY more than you should.

You are a complete moron and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. So far all you have said here are CPC talking points. Get an independent thought.

I thought you never even believed in climate change? Oh now Harper sees in the polls that the majority believe so here you come with no belief in this yet trying to argue about who is not doing what.

The answer is YOU.

You are not living up to your responsibilities as a human being sharing this planet with others. You are a gutless parasite feeding off of society's good will for your own personal gain whether it be some stocks or just too lazy to get off your fat a** to recycle.

Sorry KNB for the rant but I am sick and tired of these MaryT and Wilson types.

By the way Wilson you pull those countries out of a hat? Only the massive and uber powerful nation of Trinidad and Tobaggo supports Canada on this. At no point today, yesterday, nor tomorrow will you see the other countries you listed. What you are doing is taking a few commments and twisting it to suit your faulty beliefs. Strange how they say this after wanting the former. Care to elaborate/lie? Or at least provide a link.

You people are very confused. If you need explanation ask don't assume or regurgitate what someone else has told you. I have a M.Sc. with a focus in Environmental science. This stuff is my job.

Jay said...

Why not, instead of wasting your time arguing about something you don't know much about, approach a neighbourhood school and donate a tree to them?

The tree will absorb GHG but equally importantly provide shade to children outside. It reduces school temps on the sunny side of the school in spring summer, reducing A/C requirements and acts as a windbreak in winter.

It'll make you feel like you have done a part without having to know about carbon cycling and sequestration, you get exercise, the children get an enormous benefit and you did something for your community.

Trolling political sites fighting for a party that cares nothing about you is much less gratifying.

knb said...

Ryan, you make a good point. I suppose there is a sector that doesn't care or has a vested interest in keeping the status quo.

Multi nationals aside, I think most citizens do care, though the level of concern does vary. The government has done everything possible to confuse the issue, so I'm sure many tune out.

Baird in the House today said "aspirational goals don't cut it". Huh? That's what they are proposing in Canada and what Harper just proposed in Kampala. They announce Liberal program after Liberal program, except those that would have actually started the process.

Interestingly though, that attitude is not exclusive to one financial bracket. I know rich people who are very concerned and poor who aren't, (they have immediate issues to deal with).

I know it's cute to cite that the Lib's didn't get it done and in some respects I would agree. What's missed of course is any intelligent discourse about what really went on.

The Con's fought EVERY environment bill brought forward by the Lib's.

Issues shift in popular culture and governments focus on those issues. In spite of cabinet decisions, Dion kept working on this file

I do btw, think that India and China want to come on board, but they are going to hold industrialized countries feet to the fire, as they should.

This government is determined to run out the clock on Kyoto and any meaningful action.

They are fine with actually creating a disaster...that's one step beyond The Shock Doctrine.

Scarey stuff.

Dame said...

btw, Mary's name is John.
/I have a good Compass ../

Anyway what I wanted to say is
the Western Economies are leading the world as Top polluters in the last century or more and getting rich By Doing it without concern.... Now would Not it be fair to start LEADING the World how to tackle the problems showing example and yes sacrificing a Bit of the gained wealth by Doing IT.

Frankly I Don't expect ANY CONSERVATIVE /of this present Government/ can think this way..
Just like they are all PRO LIFERS but thy can't care about what the Children will inherit after a few decades .....

TAXCUT is the only word on their banner.
the Greed has No limits and no heart.


knb said...

Marta, indeed your compass is well tuned.

I'd expand the Con banner to TAX cut's, (not smart ones though), Crime, crime, all the time and if we can work some Terra in there that pretty much sums them up.

They are dismantling this country bit by bit.

Ryan, I know why you support the NDP and I think it's admirable. Given who is sitting though, do you really think this is the best strategy at this time?

Anonymous said...

Knb Jay

I thought the liberal blogs were supposed to be this big tent of discussion were opposing views are allowed without being insulted for it yea right only if we happen to agree with you people silly me.

My 10 year old son saw me being trashed on this blog,because I happened to forget to close my computer.

What a pathetic way to live your life's I just hope you are darn proud of yourselves.


Anonymous said...


Don't worry I will not be posting on your blog anymore since I'm not wanted. I hope your happy!

Mary B.

Jay said...

Cry me a river Mary.

yes their is discussion amongst liberal blogs, glad you come here for that. Why not the BT's I wonder.

The problem with discussion on climate change is
1) climate change is not something their is a credible opposing view on. Its given equal time by the media but is like saying pepsi sells as much as coke because they have the same number of commercials.

2) you should know what you are talking about, especially what is really occurring in the countries involved. It requires reading beyond CPC talking points.

What is happening here on this post are a couple of people who are only looking for confirmation of what they believe and unfortunately what MaryT and Wilson keep pushing is just the latest flavour of the usual peddling of misinformation.

First you didn't believe in global warming until the PM did, now everyone word he speaks about it you bring here to what you call "discuss" In reality you have a singular unchanging view (until Harper changes his that is). There is no discussion. I stated several things here that is reality, yet you keep pushing the same notion as though you were never addressed at all.

Single motive only just to "push the message"

No discussion and no intent to in the first place.

Wilson has dropped by my place in the past to make a statement then never show up again for the response. Like IO said spreading propaganda only.

Pretty sad.

As for your 10 year kid reading this blog. Let me guess a liberal did it?

Don't be so irresponsible around your children. You have no one to blame but yourself so don't make this KNB's issue. What you want me banned or something? Shoot the messenger so to speak.

Can you conservatives not take responsibility for anything?

Jay said...


Sorry about scaring away Mary T. If you wish I could copy and paste from CPC website and news sites and sign off as her for nostalgia.

Ryan said...

knb-the best strategy? As in do I think voting NDP is the best strategy?

Jay said...

I see what you are saying. I'd like to add though that our current mess with infrastructure not being maintained/replaced is due to the constant peddling of tax cuts by both governement forming parties. Tax cuts always have a cost, there was a reason they were collecting it in the first place.

I think we have hit rock bottom with regard to what tax cuts can actually be given. They will all come at a sacrifice now.

I am very wary of Flaherty proposing P3's for infrastructure.

I also find it bizarre that some Conservatives agree with the P3 route but then get nasty should the government propose tolls on roads. It happens here in Ontario every time Toronto muses on tolls enetering the city. Conservatives freak out. Money grab, blah blah blah.

What do they expect from infrastructure from P3's? Private industry is not going to give money away for nothing and who excatly is accountable should projects go awry?

No one.

Ryan said...


Don't forget that P3's also usually end up costing more money than public projects.

Jay said...

Yet Flaherty says this will increase the governments spending power on infrastructure by three times. That would mean private industry is forking over 66%.

Ever been to Illinois? I drove to the 'burbs of Chicago where there are tolls everywhere. By the time I got to where I was going I had no cash to continue. I had to stop, walk and look for a bank machine in order to get past the next toll. I actually when on through the last as it was automated. Screw them. What a nightmare just to get somewhere. All that effort to get to a shithol community called Wheaton where I had to take a course at a religious college.


Constant stop and go.

I can imagine its not the best for GHG.

Yet thats where the CPC wants to take us. Just as well we gave them no cash to help out. Its not like we will have any control over these projects once completed.

Dame said...

To Mary "get over yourself " and next time around Try Honesty.
tell it who you are I personally abhor snipers of the dark...

to Jay and to Ryan it is such a Good experience to read your informed and truth telling posts. Thank You.

What I am scared the most among many thing is the Harper's drive to disenfranchise the country By cutting the Provinces Lose diminishing the federal role and CARE ..
This is what means the end of Canada we have now..

At the other hand he wants a BIG and Expensive MILTARY FORCE to build /what we do not really need/
The way he Goes and GIVE AND GIVE AND GIVE basketful of money to all small or not small special Groups Anyone who rolls over >…for the GREAT LEADER. Money seems to be on His personal disposals even his party just haplessly watches him Doing the “KINGS TOUR” throwing money on the road ….
An his stance about the environment is Unbelievable wrongheaded. This is going To be his Achilles heel!!! The more Stubborn he is .he will fall By this.

Jay said...

I have the same feeling.

Harper doesn't like the fact that money moves from province to province. He probably views equalization as a socialist money sucking scheme which is why he threatened to put a firewall around Alberta.

He is intent on achieving this whether Canada still exists or not afterward.

Quebec political parties are quite fine with the end result as well which is why he tied his hitch to the ADQ.

What Harper is doing is accelerating Quebec's departure and Alberta's but without the nuisance of going through a referendum.

The Conservatives know that by cutting funding here and there so the programs don't function will ultimately result in a crisis where people would be more inclined to believe its a failure when in actuality it was undermined. Thats how they operate.

Create a crisis, change the status quo.

On the Kyoto front he's been saying we are in Kyoto when obviously we are not. he knows if he formally withdraws then Canad will be hit with trade penalties. So thats why you hear the two faced approach to global warming and kyoto.

Not that he cares we would be penalized but because his party would be by voters.

Absolute power at all costs even if it bankrupts us.

Gayle said...

knb, sorry to be completely OT here, but I noticed
today and thought it was interesting given a past discussion on your blog. At the time I wondered if the Charter compelled government to intervene on behalf of Smith. Looks like he is giving it a try.

(hope the link works...)

knb said...

No problem Gayle. It's been a crazy day, but that indeed is the subject of my latest post. I saw the news story this morning.

Thanks, the link works fine. It's not in my post yet, because I want to see what portion of the charter is being called into question here.

To the rest, I'm sorry for not responding, I hope I have a chance later.

The Mound of Sound said...

What a wild ride! It's unfortunate that so much gets lots in the anger and insults. How did a problem as fundamental and partisan as global warming get so torn up in a partisan squabble. What, beyond a disturbing corporate affiliation, drives conservatives in North America to oppose the overwhelming science of global warming and the introduction of meaningful responses to it? They don't have to worry about global warming tanking their investment portfolios, the US debt crisis will do that for them. People, this is a one-way street. We don't get to start over five or ten years from now. If you don't accept the degree of the urgency, accept the reality of not being able to undo inaction. Like it or not, Harper is doing his best to lead us straight down the road to inaction. That's the only way to preserve the corporate and far-right interests.