Saturday, September 01, 2007

A Conservative MP I Agree With

On this one issue at least. That said, I doubt that he has hope in hell of changing Stockwell Day's mind.

Mr. Rajotte has taken up the case of Perry King. Mr. King is in prison in Cuba, for having had sex with two girls, 15 and 16 years of age. Whatever your personal opinions of these incidents, both girls stated that the sex was consensual.

Mr. Rajotte is asking that Mr. King be transferred to a Canadian jail. What reply has King's family received?

Each time, the Conservative government turned him down, reasoning in a letter from Day's office that "based on the nature of these offences, there is concern the offender's return to Canada would constitute a threat to the security of Canada."

Huh? The family hasn't asked that the guy be brought back and set free, they are asking that he come home to a cell, with better conditions. Day makes it sound as if this guy is a pedophile. Didn't they just push to change the age of consent here to 16? Therefore, if this had happened in Canada, he wouldn't have been charged, in one case anyway. To be honest, I don't know if that Bill received Royal Assent, but I think maybe it has. If it hadn't, neither charge would be valid, except in Day's mind.

Good for Rajotte taking on the ideologue named Day, a rather gutsy move in this government, but it seems highly unlikely to me that he will be able to make any headway and will more likely be silenced before we hear anything more.

They, Day's people, of course had to get a juvenile shot in.

Day's spokeswoman defended the figures, saying that "the previous Liberal government put criminals' rights first; we do not.

What an insane, juvenile comment. Typical US style attack. The predictability of their comments is beyond laughable.

In Stock's world, even if you are Canadian, but don't agree with his ideology, you mean nothing and can rot in (a) cell.

40 comments:

Anonymous said...

He broke the law in Cuba, he should do the time in Cuba. Why would he think he's entitled to come home to serve his time? Did he not think (a) what he was doing was illegal in Cuba, and (b) they have lousy jails in Cuba? Sorry, he can do his time in Cuba.

knb said...

Stock, is that you?

What a ridiculous response.

Have you been to Cuba? Of course not, it would go against your principles.

What strikes me most often about conservative commenters, is that they have no point of reference, they have nothing on which to base their argument, they simply, and I mean that word literally, base their view on ideology.

It wasn't an accident that the latest poll show's that most supporters of the con's are the least educated.

Analysis and reason seem to evade them.

Johnny said...

KNB

Its up to thee individual to know the laws of the land they go to and visit. If he was innocent of the crime fine i would agree with you that he should be brought back here in
Canada. Possible face trial here,but this isn't the case here now. What
know we should start
importing prisoners from
other countries know? Why our prisons are not over
crowded enough and cost us an arm and a leg to look after them. Makes no
difference if he is a
Canadian or not!!

"Mr. Rajotte has taken up the case of Perry King. Mr. King is in prison in Cuba, for having had sex with two girls, 15 and 16 years of age. Whatever your personal opinions of these incidents, both girls stated that the sex was consensual." So what
the sex was consensual.
It makes no difference
the idiot is Mr.King.
The girls could very well be 100 years old what difference does that make? If it is illegal
in cuba then it is illegal period.

A few years back we
had a similar case in
Ottawa. It involved a
Russian ambassador for drunk driving and if I'm
not mistaking I think
he actually ended up killing someone I'm not
sure,but you may correct
me if I'm wrong. Now you
may say the crime is
different maybe so ,but
same principle.

I still remember the
victims family and our government of the day were fighting the Russian government,because they
invoked diplomat immunity .
The Canadian public
didn't like it because
we wanted to be tried
and sentence here rightfully so. Now why
import prisoners from
other countries i don't
get it just sounds crazy to me sorry KNB!!

Johnny said...

KNB

"It wasn't an accident that the latest poll show's that most supporters of the con's are the least educated."

WHAT!!!!

knb said...

John, I'm too tired to find the link, but the last poll showed that those who support Harper tend to have High School or less.

Not uneducated, but less educated.

Johnny said...

You know KNB we can find polls on everything and everything. Do you believe every single polls out there? Apparently yes!!

Why don't you talk about these serious polls for example: 57% of country thinks that we are on the right track!!
Are they less educated?

This is from the Globe and Mail and CTV by the Strategic Counsel:
"The poll also suggests that Conservative support is less fluid than that of the Liberals. Fifty-five per cent of those who declared themselves Liberal said they would consider switching parties – far more than the 35 per cent of Conservatives who say they could be persuaded to do so."

"And most of those Liberals who say they might vote for another party list the Conservatives, not the NDP, as their second choice. That's a reversal from the period before the 2006 election."

Its like I always said
if you care to look at my
past post that most people who vote Liberals would vote conservatives. Which tells me that they are not left wing has you pretend that they are,
otherwise they would
consider to vote NDP
or green right? Now I would assume that you think they are less educated too right?

You may disagree with
the right thats fine no
problem with that! But
don't quote idiotic polls
like that these are stupid polls period. I
could find idiotic polls
all over the internet
the internet is full with
polls like this.

You go on some of these left wing blogs and
you will see an insult on every second word and this from the author
them self.

Don't bother to send
a link to it because i
have better things to do
then to read stupidity!!

I just wish you would have more respect of the people who take time to put a post on your blog people who disagree with you. Then to try to quote stupid polls!! Because
you think it makes you
and the left feel superior to everyone else
this is why you mentioned this stupid idiotic poll.
If it would have said the
Liberals you would have
never mentioned it right?


It only makes you sound cheap and it cheapens the conversation. I'm sorry to say KNB. I thought
you were better then this !!

knb said...

Why don't you talk about these serious polls for example

Same poll John, :).

Page 18.

wilson said...

It is a firm belief of Libloggers, that only uneducated people, pro war, religious zealots, anti-women/minority/gay/enviro types vote Conservative.

Of course, then there is the little contradiction of the Liberals proffessing this from the OPPOSITION benches!!! (with noses held high, doing the Puffin thing)

Liberals will counter, that 64% of Canadians did not vote for the Cons; doing the Puffin thing again, ignoring that a higher % did not vote Lib.....

I dare say, and maybe you have a poll on this KNB, that there are millions more Canadians that don't have a university degree, than do.

Give me common sense any day, over a well educated elitist.

Johnny said...

Wilson you see how the left works? We pose questions and they just
ignore it. Its because it
contradict their left wing agenda thats why!!

Take a look at some
of these left wing blogs
and you will see every second word insults upon
insults. Example, name
calling and you have no
idea what your talking
about!! This by the people who owns the blogs
not just the post.

These people think
that they are the most
intelligent people on the planet. They think they
are far superior to 57%
of the people who think
this country is on the right track.

Notice Wilson that
they don't mention the
57%,because it would
contradict what they
been saying ever since
thee election of this
government.

Remember since thee
election of this government the left was predicting doom and gloom
over the budget saying that "we are going to go
down the road of deficits" remember it? We
now don't hear this anymore gee I wonder why? Any ideas ?;)

KNB I'm a Cons. supporter and darn proud of the path this country is going down and so are those 57% of the people. If you look at the polls.

KNB not thats any ones business but I have more education then you might think,you have no idea what i do for a living and you will never know!

I just wish that
we can disagree without resorting to these stupid innuendos. Trying to make
yourself and the left
more intelligent then
they really are. Nice dumb try.;)

knb said...

Oh for heaven's sake. I made no comment about your education John. I was responding to the first anon comment that was simplistic beyond description.

I quoted the poll, I didn't design it.

Those of you who are unhappy with the results, take it up with the pollster.

Anonymous said...

Yes, and polls also indicated the conservatives read less as well - this one is obvious. They lean on brainwashing rhetoric - damn, don't let facts get in the way of an argument.

Isn't slipping in the puffin story (which was a "joke" kids) getting a little tiresome?

Johnny said...

KNB

You quoted this poll:
"It wasn't an accident that the latest poll show's that most supporters of the con's are the least educated."

This sounds like a general comment about
the right. You have posted this quote because you believe in it otherwise you would have never done post it. Thats o.k. you have the right to your own opinion I don't dispute that.

This was my whole point!

Gayle said...

knb - The lowering of the age of consent has just passed in the HofC (it was delayed by the conservatives - the liberals have been pushing to pass this one for a while now), and is now at the senate.

What this man did was, in my view, morally wrong, however in this country it was not a criminal offence. It is completely appalling that Day would make those comments - frankly I think they are bordering on libelous, implying as they do that this man is a pedophile (as you noted, the sex was consensual).

The entire purpose of having an agreement between countries for the transfer of prisoners is to allow our citizens to be moved closer to their families - something that has been found to be important for rehabilitation (our prison system moves prisoners to the prisons closest to their families too).

It is beyond reprehensible that this government would use this man as an example in their ongoing false accusations that the liberals are "soft" on crime.

This story is getting a lot of play in Edmonton and the family and the public are putting heat on our MP's, so hopefully that will work.

burlivespipe said...

Considering what the CONs think of Cuba -- wasn't part of Harper's whirlwind hot air tour this summer, and he's made comments very similar to republikan-speak on it -- i'm amazed that they aren't considering risking this idiot.
What you don't mention is this Perry guy's age. Isn't the Canadian law currently being considered have a close-in-age clause for 14-16?
And I'm not certain, but lets not forget that these are CONservatives, aka down south republicots. Sex is taboo (except when in bathroom stalls between boys, or i guess unless you are caught)... They shake hands, wag their fingers but only in medicinal instances, and only in missionary positions, engage in such dirty things.
We Liberals may hide our dung; the CONs are busy hiding their shame.

Steve V said...

"It is a firm belief of Libloggers, that only uneducated people, pro war, religious zealots, anti-women/minority/gay/enviro types vote Conservative."

Generalization of course, but it's not the Libloggers, instead all the pollsters that have made the point. If you haven't completed highschool, you are more likely to vote Conservative, and the inverse is true with regards to University or College. That's just a fact, not some elitist creation of lefties. Sorry.

Just to add, most of the comments I have read from the right on my blog and others tend to confirm the above.

Anonymous said...

knb - Yes, I've been to Cuba. And if I broke the law in Cuba, I'd expect to be punished in Cuba. And, FYI, I have two degrees and I'm a Liberal.

knb said...

Anon and other who made this point, if I broke the law elsewhere, of course you are going to be punished there, however, if said country is known not to value human rights as laid out in our law, then we make an attempt to get them home, where they may serve out the rest of their time, if warranted.

The two women who were accused in the Inneiro case, if they were to step foot in Mexico, they would be arrested. Would we do anything? What about Celil in China?

We have followed this practice for years and once Day took over, the number of cases we took an interest in, dropped to 1/2. We've done it under all governments, not just Liberal.

In this case, I have no doubt that Day's ideology plays a part.

Johnny said...

KNB:

"Anon and other who made this point, if I broke the law elsewhere, of course you are going to be punished there, however, if said country is known not to value human rights as laid out in our law, then we make an attempt to get them home, where they may serve out the rest of their time, if warranted."

If you don't like
the human rights of any
countries just simply don't go there we have
close to 200 countries to choose from to visit. Don't quote me on this i may be off by a few countries,but i think you
know what i mean.

"The two women who were accused in the Inneiro case, if they were to step foot in Mexico, they would be arrested. Would we do anything? What about Celil in China?"

KNB apples and oranges Inneiro case and
Celil in China,correct me
if I'M wrong but aren't they claiming that they are innocent of the charges right?

Mr. King or his family none of whom are claiming that he is innocent of the charges
right? It doesn't mater
if it was consensual or not their law says that its illegal to have sex with 15 and 16 years
old.

"We have followed this practice for years and once Day took over, the number of cases we took an interest in, dropped to 1/2. We've done it under all governments, not just Liberal."

Our jails and prisons are already overcrowded as it is and
you and the left want to
import prisoners even if they happen to be from our country.

Every once in a while I see a comercial
even under the Liberal
government that says that
we should respect the laws of the country that we are going to,because
they may not have the same rules or punishment
has we do here.


If anyone doesn't like the government or their rules in those countries DON'T GO!!
Why is this so difficult
to understand it boggles my mind.

knb said...

For the FINAL time. Of course he should not have broken the law. Of course in doing so, he was subject to their system.

However, in Canada, we have Bilateral Treaties with many countries around the world, called Transfer of Offender Treaties.

With respect to Cuba, you can find it here.

If their (the con's), young offender's legislation passed, it looks like this guy fits the bill. He was working down there so I presume he had some permanent resident status.

At the end of the day, there is nothing in our law, nothing in this Treaty, that prevents our governement from acting.

This is clearly based on Day's ideology, unless he can state otherwise.

You don't have to agree with the laws or Treaties, that is your prerogative, but that was not the point of my post. The point is what Canadians are entitled to under our laws and Stockwell Day ignoring that.

Johnny said...

KNB

"You don't have to agree with the laws or Treaties, that is your prerogative, but that was not the point of my post. The point is what Canadians are entitled to under our laws and Stockwell Day ignoring that."

Its not our laws
in question here its the laws of cuba. He broke
the laws of cuba pay the
price in cuba next time
maybe he'll be more vigilant period!!

"This is clearly based on Day's ideology, unless he can state otherwise."

Maybe or maybe not
I don't care in this particular case. It doesn't change one iota!

I knew that we have
a treaty with cuba a long time now and i say to that SOOO WHAT!! It changes nothing period!!

Gayle said...

Here is the Journal's editorial on this today:

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/opinion/story.html?id=bb55644d-012e-44bb-9cbf-66d6bef0291d

knb said...

Thanks Gayle. Interesting slant at the end, especially since the con's were calling Arar a terrorist, but point made.

The disregard for human rights by some in this country is both perplexing and sad.

Johnny said...

KNB:

"The disregard for human rights by some in this country is both perplexing and sad."

Its too bad that
the left want to treat
criminals with white gloves. What do you think
the parents of the 15 and
16 years old thinks about this individual? This scum bag took advantage
of the situation proboly
because they are poor.

Don't you think
we have enough scum bags
in our country?

Go ahead speak about human rights for
the criminals. I on the
other end speak about
human rights for the victims.

I'm really bewilder how left seems to care more about the criminals then their victims just amazing to me. Ah well
maybe in time they will get it.Chuckles;)

knb said...

I'm quite sure that the parents of these girls, have no idea where they are. Or, maybe they depend on their income.

John, every corner in Havana, or most, are filled with women from 15 to 80, selling sex. Fact. Both girls consented...I doubt it was the first time.

This is not about moralising, get over yourself. It's about dealing with the reality in the country.

BTW, we have 15 yr. olds here in TO as you do in Mtl., who trade for sex. Hell, they don't even trade, they go to clubs and give.

This is not murder man, it's sex. If you think 15 yr. old's don't have sex, you are living in a fantasy world. Personally, I'm sorry they do. If you want my view, I don't think they are prepared, but it is reality.

Rape, completely different issue...these girls said they were not.

He had sex with two girls who said, yes. Rot in jail for 15 yrs.? This could be your brother or Dad, or my brother.

Broke the law, fine, bring him home, jail him here and fight it.

Gayle said...

john

What on earth does where this man serves his sentence have to do with the rights of these girls? It is a false argument to tie the two.

Let me tell you something about rights though - about something that happens in our own country. In my profession I deal with children and youth at risk, which means I deal with a huge number of child prostitutes. Do you not agree these children have a "right" to a safe home, food and an education? Are you aware that in our country many of these youth are rarely given sufficient assistance? I recently worked with a 14 year old girl whose social worker outright refused to provide her with a home - because that 14 year old girl also happens to be an alcoholic (a result of physical and sexual abuse suffered when she was younger, and the fact that her own mother supplies her with alcohol).

You want to talk about rights of children - you need to look in your own back yard. Child poverty in this country is far too high, and many children are suffering because their parents are homeless. There is virtually no access to treatment of mental health care. It is appalling and disgusting.

There are too many people in this country who are complacent and willing to sit back and believe the state will look after all these unfortunate people. They do not vote, and they do not have a voice. Those of us who try to speak for them are labelled as "lefties" and ignored.

(sorry for the rant - I am a bit passionate about this issue).

Gayle said...

Oh - and knb, the mother of one of the girls is the person who made the complaint.

Johnny said...

KNB:

"He had sex with two girls who said, yes. Rot in jail for 15 yrs.? This could be your brother or Dad, or my brother."

My Dad,or my brother would never do
this,because they are not
stupid. This person was.

Do the time where
the crime was committed
period!! Unless like i said in a earlier post
if he is innocent then
thats a whole other story! No one is claiming
this right? Then too bad
to the time.

People should do
their homework before going to third world countries or any other
countries for that mater
work or other thats all!!

Gayle said...

"No one is claiming this right?"

He is - read the link I posted.

Johnny said...

Gayle please don't give the impression that the right doesn't care about child poverty ok because this is bull and you know it.

Do you not agree these children have a "right" to a safe home, food and an education?
Yes I do AGREE!!

The left was in charge for much of the 90's in Ottawa. This
problem didn't pop up
in the last 18 months.

I'm just sick and tired of the left to pin
everything on Harper no
mater what. I mean you
people would blame Harper
for the Liberals adscam
if you can get away with it.;)

I'm done with this post.

Gayle said...

I am not pinning anything on the right - I am asking you, personally, if you are aware of what is going on in your own country.

I also asked you what where this man serves his sentence has to do with the rights of these girls, but you sidestepped that one.

knb said...

Gayle, I guess it's a whole other issue...though connected.

In this country, we are missing the point, imo. The futility of laying blame, without looking at cause..assessing cause, (ours), is very tough to get through.

I'm enamored with Bartleman's plight at this moment. There are too many to speak to, but I try.

Kid's are paramount, but the world is not this or that, nor black and white. The world is complex and having seen those kid's in Cuba, my heart broke. I know you get this.

Johnny said...

Gayle:

"I also asked you what where this man serves his sentence has to do with the rights of these girls, but you sidestepped that one."

Apples and oranges
o.k.GAYLE do you understand i doubt this.I
will answer it anyways! It doesn't help the
victims no mater where he serves his sentence clear enough for you.

Now answer my question how will it help
these girls if he serves
his sentence here in Canada? Lets see if you have any courage to answer this question GAYLE!!

KNB:

"Kid's are paramount, but the world is not this or that, nor black and white. The world is complex and having seen those kid's in Cuba, my heart broke. I know you get this."

I have a family member that came from
Cuba only 10 years ago.
I have friends that went
to Cuba. I know the misery thats going on there.

If you are trying
to imply that the right
doesn't care or get whats
going on in Cuba or anywhere else,then you must be living in wonderland.

Now this said,this
scum bag(Mr. King)should
server his sentence in Cuba.The only reason why
you want him to serve his sentence here,because he will be better treated here. We have a scum bag
who doesn't care about his victims and we should
protect the poor guys rights!! Whats wrong with this picture?

I would challange
you people in a similar
situation here in Canada
let alone legal or not
go to the parents and ask
them what punishment should this person get?
See if any of you would have the courage to do this.

Just for the record:
"I DO CARE ABOUT THE
VICTIMS CLEAR ENOUGH?"

Gayle said...

"Now answer my question how will it help these girls if he serves
his sentence here in Canada? Lets see if you have any courage to answer this question GAYLE!!"

I doubt it will make any difference to these girls WHERE he serves his sentence - which was my point. You claimed KNB was only concerned about the rights of the accused, and you were concerned about the rights of the victims. I merely responded that the rights of the victims are not affected by this.

Gayle said...

"I know you get this."

I do - and I do not intend to suggest things are just as bad here, but there are cases here that break my heart every day, and very few politicians seem to notice.

It is easy to go on the internet and post about victims' rights, as you and I have seen many people do. I simply wonder when these people are going to write their MP, or MLA and ask them to do something substantial to help these victims. You don't, because no matter how much people like john say they care about poor, and the victims, you never see them asking our politicians to raise taxes to pay for things like social workers, foster care and housing.

Johnny said...

Gayle:

"I do - and I do not intend to suggest things are just as bad here, but there are cases here that break my heart every day, and very few politicians seem to notice.

It is easy to go on the internet and post about victims' rights, as you and I have seen many people do. I simply wonder when these people are going to write their MP, or MLA and ask them to do something substantial to help these victims. You don't, because no matter how much people like john say they care about poor, and the victims, you never see them asking our politicians to raise taxes to pay for things like social workers, foster care and housing."

Typical Liberal
answer to everything raise tax's. This is
the way they fix problems right?

What about this
lower tax's!! The people that work
on minimum wages would have more cash
to feed them self and house them self. People that work would have more cash in their pockets that
could help charity donations.

Thee economy that
already strong would be even stronger that
means more cash for
governments.

If people would have more take home pay they would be more richer.

Why do think that our politicians
don't campaign on raising tax's? Is it
possible because they would lose?

Here we have KNB
that criticize Harper
every chance she gets
that he has raised tax's and here you are saying that we don't pay enough!!
What is wrong with
this picture?

Gayle said...

Aargh - just posted a long response and I lost it. I will spare you the details and try to keep it short:

1. Lowering taxes will not help the people who are too poor to pay taxes in the first place. It will not hire more social workers, build more schools, provide housing for the homeless and care for the physically and mentally ill.

2. Canada is an expensive place to live. We are physically huge, have a harsh climate, and a relative tiny tax base from which we can draw. Despite that fact, our tax rate is comperable to a place like the UK - which is physically tiny, has a mild climate and a huge tax base.

I love this country. I have lived in the UK and while I loved it there. I am more than happy to spend my taxes in order to keep this great country beautiful, and its people happy, healthy and safe.

Johnny said...

Gayle higher tax's
will only create more
moor people.

"Canada is an expensive place to live. We are physically huge, have a harsh climate, and a relative tiny tax base from which we can draw. Despite that fact, our tax rate is comperable to a place like the UK - which is physically tiny, has a mild climate and a huge tax base."

Canada maybe an expensive place to live,because we pay high tax's. Example
people pay high rent,because thee owners pay high tax's then pass it on to the
tenants ever look at that way? Same with everything else. We tax
the cooperation and they will pass the buck
to you with higher prices of their products and layoffs.

What do you think
thee outcome of a referendum to raise tax's would be? Let me guess a BIG NO !!!

Gayle said...

I think if there is a referendum, people will have to get educated on exactly what they get for their taxes, and exactly what they will lose if taxes go down. As I said, in European countries like the UK, the tax rate is comperable to ours.

Our taxes pay for things like roads (expensive to maintain in our climate and because we are a large country we need more than other countries), and our courts, our jails, our schools and our medical care. They also pay for our army and that war we are waging right now. They pay for science and research, womens' shelters and social workers. As I tried to explain, when there is a small population there is a smaller tax base - this means it costs more per person to maintain these things.

If we increased our population 10x, maybe we could have lower taxes like in the US - but I do not want to live in a country with their social problems. I like it here and am willing to pay to maintain this country as it is.

Is it your position that if we lower taxes, all these things will be taken up by charities? Because if that is what you believe then I suggest you move to the US.

Johnny said...

Gayle you have your
opinion and i have mine. We are paying way too much in tax's. You don't like every time you get a refund send it back. When your ready to do your income tax go to revenue
Canada and ask them that you want to pay more,because you don't
pay enough thats all
period. I don't intend
to move to the u.s.I was born here this is
my home good day I'm done.

20 Degree Dogleg said...

Dude, you really ought to talk to some of King's former co-workers to find out what was really going on down there. For one thing, he was caught with child pornography on his laptop which is a fact that wasn't raised in court and one girl that he did have sex with was actually thirteen at the time. Moreover, his subsequent behavior towards Cuban officials plus the antics of his immediate family were disgraceful. The guy is a pedophile and that is all there is to it.