Garth Turner, known for speaking his mind of course, is being taken to task by Mario Dumont and the ever so righteous Jack Layton.Apparently, in an effort to point out how Dion has the strength of his convictions and is willing to go to Calgary to sell the Green Shift, he recalled the same strength that Dion demonstrated vis a vis the Clarity Act.
"You might not agree with everything the man says, but you have to admire this about him," Turner wrote. "He stood up once to the self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers in Quebec.
"I guess he can do it again in Alberta."
Oh the horror!
Action democratique du Quebec Leader Mario Dumont said he was "bowled over" when he found out what Turner had said on the blog.
But, Dumont is against separatism right?
"One can disagree with sovereigntists but this kind of contempt has no place in politics," Layton said. "After the sponsorship scandal, one would expect more respect from the Liberal party toward Quebecers.
"Such comments really don't help to create winning conditions for Canada in Quebec."
There's nothing quite like opportunism wrapped up in the flag of better than thou, is there?
Did Turner go over the line? Well, I think he might have chosen his words more carefully but really, compared to what is spewed regularly by Con MP's, this story is a bit rich.
So, Turner takes it on the chin, admits that Dion was unhappy, (Poilievre take a page) and moves on. He doesn't stand down on his position on a united Canada though and obviously that was his point.
This microscope we call media is one I respect, but good grief, is it too much to ask that context be included?
We haven't heard from the Con's yet, but that should be a treat. Given that they have chosen this guy to head communications, (more on him over the weekend), I look forward to sophomoric 'outrage' coming from Con MP's only to be fortified by the kindergarten reading primer, better known as the Conservative Party of Canada website.
It really is time for this country to grow up. What we have become reduced to is something I could not have imagined.
Update - Garth linked to my post so there may be more commenter's like Michel, who comment here, though most anti-Garth commenter's don't seem too interested in following links.
That said, I'm grateful for the link and the debate.
Full disclosure, I'm from Quebec, I speak french, and I find the term tête carrée juvenile and reminiscent of being in grade school.
It's time to move on people. It's time to have an honest discussion.
56 comments:
That is one of the problems in this country.
There are those in this country who don't give a tuppenny damn about it, whether it is because of greed or parochialism or both.
Unfortunately, calling these people out and condemning them for it is considered unacceptable. They have to be treated with kid gloves.
It is perverse if you ask me.
That's an apt summary ottlib.
Consider how often we are told we are not patriotic.
Isn't that ironic?
Crap you are
Michel, using babel or whatever translator you used failed you.
I'm quite sure you meant to say, 'You are crap' or maybe, 'You are full of crap'.
That you didn't explain why you felt that way, tells me that you didn't read my post and in your simplistic manner simply want to throw mud.
Guess what? Mud is easily washed off.
Update - Garth linked to my post so there may be more commenter's like Michel, who comment here, though most anti-Garth commenter's don't seem too interested in following links.
That said, I'm grateful for the link and the debate.
Full disclosure, I'm from Quebec, I speak french, and I find the term tête carrée juvenile and reminiscent of being in grade school.
It's time to move on people. It's time to have an honest discussion.
So Garth was shockingly frank and got the ritual spanking from the leader. (and admitted it!)
At the same time it connects it to and reinforces the clarity-act-courage-narrative, one of the few positive spins that Mr. Dion has going. (He is kick-starting the green image from 24 months ago, finally.)
Hey, re Michel .... I thought it was rather poetic. ;-)
So if I'm not a self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers from Quebec.
As an Albertan who despises all things Liberal including the money sucking, money grabbing green shaft scheme. What kind of names will Garth call me I wonder.
In any event I hope all my fellow Albertans join me in releasing some nasty gas in your and Garth Turners general direction.
There was so much outrage that Harper used the word screw - such vulgar language. I hope all those who thought that was improper also are against Garth and his words. They are much worse.
Dear Anonymous # 1,
You are a dumbass. You have not explained what your problem with Liberals is at all and that completely undermines the relevancy of your post. If you want to matter, make sure you explain yourself instead of spouting bullshit.
Anonymous # 2,
It's naive to say that what Garth has said is worse than what Stephen Harper said. Harper, as the Prime Minister of Canada, has to watch what he says much more closely than Garth does.
Reporters in Edmonton WILL ask Dion about The Garth's commments, for sure.
Will Dion defend or denounce what The Garth said about Albertans being losers?
When Dion goes to Quebec, reporters WILL ask Dion about 'seperatists' being called losers.
Will Dion stand by his communications man, The Garth?
Sooooooooo glad The Garth belongs to you guys.
We warned you!
Vive le Qubec souverain !
Un jour prochain, nous l'aurons, notre pays bien à nous !
Et merci aux imbéciles du ROC d'y contribuer sans même s'en apercevoir...
En prime, nous vous abandonnerons volontiers Stéphane Dindon et votre feuille d'érable fanée, que vous pouvez aller la planter dans vos Rocheuses et dans votre c...
Vinceremos !
Vive le 400e anniversaire de Québec, et vive De Gaulle !
Wilson, you imbecilic ADD troll, Garth never said Albertans were losers. He said, and I agree, that Albertans who are separatists are losers.
If you can, take this opportunity to fark right off, pack your bags and hit the road.
Go on and separate. I dare you.
In fact, if I ever catch you in my country (Canada) I'm going to make you cry. Perhaps worse if you continue to piss me off.
Sincerely,
One Canadian for One Canada
Vive le 400e anniversaire de Québec, et vive De Gaulle !
...De Gualle is "dead" and he was NOT French Canadian.
Interesting isn't it that Quebekers are commenting now? If they read Garth's blog prior to this ridiculous outrage they's know that most Conservative supporters are bigots, negative about the French and are Monarchists. And yet, they are going in Harper's direction - weird.
Dumont is strange - he voted "yes" to separation in 1995 and I've often wondered if he is planning a separation in a different way - slowly - autonomy first then separation.
What's more ridiculous - the CPC trolls that constantly bash the French Canadians are the ones jumping on the attack Garth bandwagon on this issue.
Surely, the Quebekers can't be that naive about Harper and his supporters can they?
Do they not realize what they'll lose if Harper gets a majority?
I like Garth's honesty even though he could have used slightly less inflammatory words in this situation. Or couched it somewhat differently.
The focus has been, as usual, on the words & not on the point he was making.
Garth is refreshing in his ability to speak truth compared to the juvenile, continual lies & twisting of the truth from the CON's. And their same "talking points" ad nauseum.
And Steve is working real hard at keeping this country divisive. Some "leader" he turned out to be.
I can hardly wait to have Dion & the Libs governing!
Please
Do not put French Candians and Quebecers in the same boat. We, FC's, have different needs, aspirations, values, etc. But the Canadian press and Radio-canada realize that we do not have strong political clout. So they ignore us and allocate their attention and resources to the Quebecers.
I agree with Garth that many adopt a cause for their own personal interest and have no interest in the common good of the people of Canada.
Hi,
What you said against french canadian is your mirror.
So you can be taken in pity...
Nevertheless, i wish a good day for you.
Pierre Pignac
In fact, if I ever catch you in my country (Canada) I'm going to make you cry. Perhaps worse if you continue to piss me off.
Sincerely,
One Canadian for One Canada
Hey, tough guy
How about you sign your name to that?
Just another anon pussy!
---
I was born in Montreal ..I was always proud of that fact...I dont know if I am anymore...the people of Quebec seem to think they are a special breed as do the people of Calgary...something like people born of certain religions which I shall not mention here...they are all so touchy... we are all canadian. ..one city is not better than another..your beliefs are not better than mine...Go Garth Go...gramps
Le couvert de l'anonymat sert bien aux lâches.
Vous sentez-vous outrés par l'égoisme des séparatistes québécois lorsqu'ils écrivent que les Canadiens-anglais n'ont pas de culture?
Funny that people keep complaining about various non important issues in this life of ours. I don't care about seperation of Quebec since I feel seperated already. A few years ago, an employer from Calgary told me that my English was not good enough and I should go back to Quebec.
Since most of us 'unfortunately' don't have the chance to be as good and fluent in the English language in this country than the ones that have learnt it since their youth, and because the fact that the knowledge of French is sufficient only between Gaspé and the Ottawa River, and the fact that speaking French is not necessarily a big asset in the rest of the country; I don't necessary fell that my Canada is as big as the one that master the language of Shakespeare.
Furthermore, since Quebec can defend his language on his own and French is not worth s.it in the rest of the country? What's the point of Canada. Getting the paycheck from Alberta and Ontario? Paying my goods 10-15 or 30% more than what I can pay in the US? The healthcare system?
I'm not sure about the value of beign Canadian per say since I'm valued only in a 'balkanized' area of it.
Go USA, at least, I'll pay my car 30% less than what Toyota Canada charges me right now.
Yves
Montreal
northern pov Hey, re Michel .... I thought it was rather poetic. ;-)
You have a point there. Kind of Dr. Suess*ish*.
Wilson, at least Dion meets with reporters.
sandi What's more ridiculous - the CPC trolls that constantly bash the French Canadians are the ones jumping on the attack Garth bandwagon on this issue.
They do this with every issue. Causes of convience, a party without convictions.
Given that there numbers are going down in Quebec, I expect more are catching on to who Harper really is.
Penlan The focus has been, as usual, on the words & not on the point he was making.
That would require thought, deductive reasoning even.
Anon @ 8:17, I'm not putting French Canadians and Quebecers in one boat, and Garth wasn't speaking about Quebecers either. He was referring only to separtists.
anon @ 9:47, I didn't say anything against French Canadians?
I am 1/2 French Canadian.
Gramps, I was born there too and I am still proud of it.
Not all Quebecers feel they way you describe. I think there is pride, as is true for most regions, but extremists in any form generally represent small number.
Yves, the vast majority of Canadians do not feel that way.
I'd venture to say that the person who said that to you in Calgary would say it if you were Indian, Chinese or Italian.
Not sure what I find most repulsive. Blind separatist ideologists or federalist dimwits like Garth. Allez tous vous faire pendre.
Hello KNB,
I agree with what you say but, so far, nor Chinese, nor Italian and nor Indian are an official language in Canada.
What I have the right to complain about and relay on the balkanisation of Garth Turner is the fact that French is not a competitive language enough in this country.
En résumé, should I understand: speak English or stay in Québec?
Furthermore, should you speak French and want to work for the Federal Gov't, your knowledge of French is worth only 800$ a year!
With such a policy in recognizing bilinguilism as an advantage, better stay unilingual and invest your time somewhere more interesting and leave the French into a balkanized Québec.
Yves Again
And thanks for your patience.
It is the crooked politicians trying to get a majority that is causing all this hate in Canada...lets get rid of the Cause...you know who he is..he is losing a lot of weight and his nose is getting longer....and I think Garth Turner cares about Canada and should be able to make any comment he wants...
Baird has reacted on "national unity". The Harper's communications strategy in a nutshell. Kenney, the Minister of Multiculturalism, speaks on the Environment.
Baird, the Minister of the Environment, speaks on National Unity.
I guess what's left is for Art Hanger to speak on La Francophonie.
But Yves, isn't the message of the languages law, speak French or stay out of Quebec?
Yo there!
Hailing from Quebec, here, and being one of those puny "separatists" (though I'd rather promote sovereignism, if that means anything to y'all.)
The hard point in those blogs and longs threads is when you jump in at a later time you'd want to answer to all that is said. But I'll limit myself to just a few:
Firstly, nice call from knb @11:14 "IT's time to have an honest discussion..."
There is more to being federalist or sovereignist than name-calling.
Penlan @ 07:24: "Garth is refreshing in his ability to speak truth compared to the juvenile, continual lies & twisting of the truth from the CON's."
Speaking the truth?! I mean, how many separatists or even Québecois have you spoken to? (Apart from flame-wars I mean, which is as close to a discussion as being given the finger from an elementary school kid in a passing school bus.
Regarding what Yves was saying about the importance of speaking French in Canada, I think he has a point; if federalists (or Canadian nationalists if you like) are so keen to keep Québec into that still great country, it wouldn't hurt to promote some sort of usefulness for French in Canada, to enforces laws that are supposed to reflect our country bilingual nature.
As the sovereignists realised in 1995, you can't force feed that kind of feeling, so work to demonstrate that your point is better.
Sovereignism isn't against Canada; I don't think we'd put fences along our side of the Outaouais River; it's only hard for the federal Government to convince the vast majority of Anglo-Canadians that it's worth it to invest so much energy in a minority when the ratio is so unbalanced between French- and English-speaking peoples. I believe it'd be easier to manage if we all took care of our own portion of Canada; Sovereignty doesn't need to mean separation.
More later.
(You might have noticed English ain't my mother tongue, so feel free to ask for clarifications, but I dont indulge in flame-wars, unless they're poetic or tastefully witty ;) )
Regards,
Pascal, Québec City
knb and all other canadians, I just don't understand why don't you become all american states, what's the difference between you (by you I mean english provinces) and americans, you speak the same language, you have the same way of life (quebecers too but its even worse for you), you have the same economy than the americans have, I mean it's much more free market in the english regions of the country than quebec and you have the same mind, like economic freedom and individual interests
so why arent you a part of USA and us our own and beautiful french country
Isn't it sad that Canadians are talking at each other instead of to each other?
Alberta hates Ontario - just because. Quebec feels resentment from something that happened centuries ago - sad.
Good morning!
I am a french quebecer and i must admit: It is true that we are a looser nation!
No matter what politic parties are saying, we definitely are a bunch of looser...Since 1994, Bloc Quebecois is at Ottawa and are making sure that no investment comes to Quebec ... Politic is an economic killer... Shame on Duceppe, Marois, and cie...
J'ai honte d'être québécois when i see those pathetics caracters..
Thanks for your comment...It could finally change something...someday...
Luc
Dear Lorraine,
That's a part of the problem in this country; when we try to put up a solution we always get the comment on how Québec treats with the situation. And furthermore, we're wrong about it.
When I say that bilingual should be recongnized as an asset in this country, I don't make the point of putting more French in the ROC and less English in Québec.
My point is to emphasize on the bilingualism factor.
Should you be a Federal Civil Servant in Québec and not speaking English; let's say a Custom-House Officer (Un douanier en francais; Ca m'a pris le dictionnaire de l'OLF pour le trouver) you should not have the right to get a job. Period. Funny though... I never got a Federal Officer, at Custom, or at the RCMP, or at Revenu Canada, or... that did not speak English.
One last comment on the competittiveness of English in Québec: English is so important that many of Quebecers who don't speak English cannot find a good job in their own province. Our provincial goverment even pay extra money to French and Magreb immigrant English classes to help them find a job! That should give you an idea of how English can be important in Quebec.
I think finally that comparing the situation of English in Québec to the situation of French in the rest of the country is just a wrong orientation of the debate. If Seperatists are not interested in the future of French in Canada, the federalists on the other hand should put all their effort in the recognition of bilingualism in this country!
Should it not be a value... Let's all go to the USA as Gabriel said.
Yves
Yves and MrPimp, I actually agree that it would be beneficial to have French be promoted more in the rest of Canada.
I don't think governments alone can do that though. While it may be daunting to move to an area of the country where English is the primary language, there certainly are pockets of French communities across this country.
Surely a huge push by the Federal government to promote French across the country would not be well received in some Quebec quarters and you can be darned sure that Harper has no interest in doing that.
Canada would be richer to be sure if bilingualism were the norm.
gabriel are you beig sarcastic or are you serious?
If you're serious, I can tell you that English Canada is not like the US, though I for one would prefer to see more Canadian content in our media.
The mindset you are describing is closer to what the Conservative Party feels, but that is a minority of Canadians.
It is sad Sandi, but I don't think it's hopeless.
Luc, when we get to the point that we realise that being focused only on our narrow self interest actually hurts the whole, things will change.
That applies to both the macro and micro.
Pascal but I dont indulge in flame-wars, unless they're poetic or tastefully witty ;)
Greatly appreciated.
Loraine, "speak French or stay out of Quebec".
I really have to agree with Yves's last comment on the English factor in Québec. As a French native speaker living in Montreal since 15 years, I can assure you that not speaking English in this town is a major handicap, especially when applying on jobs.This is of lesser importance outside of Montreal but keep in mind that almost half of the of Quebec's population resides here.
As you probably notice, my English is far from being perfect. I recently complete a bachelor degree and, until now, wasn't able to find a good job because of my lack of knowledge of the English language. I find it really frustrating to see that english speakers who were born here, in Montreal, and who and doesn't speak French at all can get jobs that I can't because of my English.
I am not complaining but I honestly believe that speaking only English is better than the opposite case in Montréal.
Finally, I just want to say that, a part from a few idiots, most of the comments on this blog are interesting. Good thing that peoples can express different points of view and debate on them in an intelligent and respectful way.
regards,
NB, Montréal
NB, I didn't realise that was a major problem in Montreal. All of my family who is still there, speak both languages.
Growing up there, it was really important for most people to teach their children both languages. I suppose the school system has changed.
Finally, I just want to say that, a part from a few idiots, most of the comments on this blog are interesting. Good thing that peoples can express different points of view and debate on them in an intelligent and respectful way.
I couldn't agree with you more.
To our wonderful Quebec people, just thought you'd be interested in the following:
"The establishment came down with a constitutional package which thy put to a natioan referendum. The package included distinct society status for Quebec and some other changes, including some that would just horrify you, putting universal Medicare in our constitution, and feminist rights, and a whole bunch of other things"
- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, then vice-president of the National Citizens Coalition, in a June 1997 Montreal meeting of the Council for National Policy, a right-wing American think tank.
Hmmm....about that Native apology - here's the mindset of the Conservatives on natives:
"The Europeans came to this country 300 years ago and opened it up and settled it and because we didn't kill the Indians and have Indian wars, that doesn't mean we didn't conquer these people. If they weren't in fact conquered then why did they allow themselves to be herded into little reserves on the most isolated, desolate, worthless parts of the country."
- Athabasca MP David Chatters on Aboriginal people.
How about our gay and lesbian community:
"I want the whole world to know that I do not condone homosexuals. I do not condone their activity. I do not like what they do. I think it is wrong. I think it is unnatural and I think it is totally immoral. I will object to it forever whenever they attack the good, traditional Canadian family unit that built the country."
- MP Myron Thompson.
(American born - holds dual citizenship).
"When you go into the issue of homosexuals and lesbians it's in the interest of society to have the right to discriminate against that group in areas of ... schools is one that comes to mind."
- Conservative Party Natural Resources critic Dave Chatters arguing in favour of discrimination against gays on a radio station in Westlock, Alberta, on April 30th 1996.
To our wonderful Quebec people, just thought you'd be interested in the
following
The self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers from Alberta are less than 1% of the polulation. They are a mouthy bunch though.
You go Garth
Platty:
One Canadian for One Canada will give you nosey parker and Con Death Star operative and collector of personal information only this much:
The name is La Fontaine.
Yeah, "tough guy" was the right choice of words. Good call.
Sincerely,
One Canadian for One Canada
"L'union entre les peuples, le secret de l'avenir." / "The unity of the people is the secret of the future" --Sir Wilfrid Laurier (1841-1919)
I would respect the opinion of shallow opportunists like Dumont if the substance was there.Dumont has not read so much as five pages of Canadian history in his entire life and it really shows.
Dumont has been involved in politics since he was 22 and probably never read a speech by MacDonald,Laurier,Henri Bourassa or Louis Riel.
Ok Dumont big chance for you. Speak to all those better instincts and higher values you profess.I doubt you are up to it.
I'm seperatist, and every time I here or see comments like the ones I see here I wonder: If you critic us so much, why don't you just let us go.
Why would we have to be canadian patriots? Why do you desperately expect us to be so "canadian patriots". It's never been an obligation. So what do you condemn us of? Reading your comments and wondering "Why stick with these guys!" What is there to be patriot about.
Call me what you want, treat me as you wish, I don't give a ...
In the facts, english traditions have always been preserved for english speeking quebecers, they were given more rights than they even historically asked for. They're OK if we seperate. However, assimilation has almost been completely accomplished in the rest of Canada. I can't feel patriot with those!
So if you hate us so much, why don't you just let us go? How can you think of us as you do and love your country so much? Have you forgotten that unfortunatelly we're a part of it. You hate it or you love it?
Who are you to decide what we should be?
I say this much if Dion gets in hope the rest of Canada can support itself cause Alberta will say to the United States want the oil makes us a state. I hate paying taxes and getting less in this confederation and being told keep paying more. If Dion gets in Alberta will not bow but will stand and say enough is enough. I hope Saskatchewan and Newfoundland that are prospering will also say enough is enough. Can somebody explain to me why the East wants wealth distrubution again 26 years later. Don't be jealous Alberta has surplusses and no debt. Make your Government work fo it. The Central Canada seems to think it is entitled to take from the west.
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