My personal opinion is, it is now the time to put this behind us and rally. Enough already with the shoulda, coulda.There were arguments to be made on both sides and both were compelling. A decision has been taken and if we want this Party to go forward, it's time we respected that decision.
So, how to go forward?
I think Dion made clear what he objects to, but he wasn't Jack Layton-like, in that he cited where the government included some good things, or at the very least items we can and should support. That admission contributes an element of sincerity, integrity and honesty, versus the NDP brinksmanship.
I get the hawks and the doves argument, but maybe we can extend that analogy to include another bird, the owl. I know, I know, that conjures images of the egg-head, but consider that for a moment. Harper is no dummy and he has great strategists, aligned to his cause.
Polls be damned as it relates to leadership. These polls are no different than polls that had Harper in the same position. Worse even.
To the hawks, I say you're consuming media without analysis. You're believing what the con's are putting out and the media is reporting on. Do you have a point, ie, perception is reality? Yes. What you've not done however, imo, is given any chance for that perception to shift, nor do you seem to support that.
Dion did what he had to and I believe the Lib's will take them down, when it is more sound to do so. That includes you hawks.
Harper will fall on a Bill at a time when we are better prepared.
Donate. That will be important, but the media has spun that aspect into a frenzy. If an election is called, all bets are off. We have a playing field that will be fought on level ground, financially.
In my mind, it's better to fell them on a real issue and thereby give the
Lib's a chance to show how they are different, much different from the con's, to Canadians .
Whether you agree or disagree about the timing, now is the time to unite.
15 comments:
A thousand per cent behind you. All this "if we don't, we can't..." talk seems to be playing right into the CON game, and no doubt here on the blogsphere they are chortling behind their keyboards.
Time to suck it up - no one knows the real dynamics in the caucus and what kind of strategy we're working towards. But what point would it have served to rush to a near-certain loss on no issue in particular?
We've got to make this next stand count, because all we care and want for Canada is at stake. For those who were divided but seriously had Liberal values at heart, may mean they they be their own counsel for a while. Otherwise, your no better as a team player than those candidate quitters in Quebec.
KNB for what i understand that Dion wanted to force an election,but his party said no.
Here is an excerpt of the article:
The Liberal sources said Dion wanted to force an election, fearing his reputation as a champion of the environment and progress he's made wooing Green and left-wing voters will be seriously hurt if Liberals don't vote against Harper's anti-Kyoto message.
However, he came under heavy pressure from many of his MPs who worry about going into an election while party is disorganized, weak in Quebec, stagnant in the polls, and low on funds.
Insiders say internal party polls paint a much more dismal picture for the Liberals than public opinion polls, including the prospect of being reduced to as little as two seats in Quebec.
This is me talking now:
Dion will lose face when it comes to Kyoto, because he will be held responsible for letting the throne speech that is anti-Kyoto accord to pass.
We can see Jack Layton traveling the country and say that Dion is not a man of his word,because when push came to shove he did nothing.
When it comes to public polls, your right don't believe them, because according to the liberal insider their own liberal polls are worse then the public ones. They would be reduced to only 2 seats imagine this from their own polls.
Now if you would see a public poll that would say this, you would probably say don't believe it right?
Its not the so called right wing media organization,its the liberals own polling that are saying it.
Well said Burl, brilliant in fact.
John, I see the Kool-aid has added more sugar now. You are pratically panting.
You are wrong though. Buy your guy's stuff. I cannot wait to see your comments when he falls.
KNB
"John, I see the Kool-aid has added more sugar now. You are pratically panting."
"You are wrong though. Buy your guy's stuff. I cannot wait to see your comments when he falls."
I'm not saying it, its their own internal polling that are saying it. Don't you believe your own party now?
KNB
Did you at least read the article?
KNB and burlivespipe,
Good post, good comment.
Yes, let cool heads prevail.
On my 7:27 post correction typo.
"When it comes to public polls, your right don't believe them, because according to the liberal insider their own liberal polls are worse then the public ones. They would be reduced to only 2 seats imagine this from their own polls."
I meant 2 seats in Quebec. Sorry for the typo.
TRIWIWA, first of all, although I have no reason to doubt the article, i don't give much credence or time to something that quotes unnamed 'sources'.
I'm in the media, and four days ago I overheard unnamed sources say that if Harper does't get his majority this time, he's toast. There's already money in the bank for a Mike Harris leadership campaign. He's got a lease agreement with John Tory's bus people, according to this source, and he wanted to kick off the campaign in Kingston near the gravesite of John A. Macdonald.
It'll be in tomorrow's newspaper. Watch for it.
burlivespipe said...
TRIWIWA, first of all, although I have no reason to doubt the article, i don't give much credence or time to something that quotes unnamed 'sources'.
I'm in the media, and four days ago I overheard unnamed sources say that if Harper does't get his majority this time, he's toast. There's already money in the bank for a Mike Harris leadership campaign. He's got a lease agreement with John Tory's bus people, according to this source, and he wanted to kick off the campaign in Kingston near the gravesite of John A. Macdonald.
It'll be in tomorrow's newspaper. Watch for it.
Not that I think that even the amazing powers of humour can save the Liberal party at this point, I gotta say this is comedy gold!
I LOL'd!
You rock, BIP! Look out, Mercer!
I agree with the "woulda coulda", now that a decision has actually been made, before that a healthy debate was warranted, heck even Turner was quite vocal. As a "hawk", I'm prepared to rally, but I still will point to opportunities as presented.
I must say, quite impressed with Dion today. A nice declaw of the NDP, using simple facts as it relates to manoeuvering (no one is pure). I thought the best line, asking Harper if he told the Afghan panel that the decision has already been made, their work is done. Perfect way to undercut the significance, who ever penned that line kudos.
Now that Dion has decided the course, we need to hammer these guys in Parliament, keep a zipper on the internal machinations, present a confident image, get some policy out (Dion had good themes today, very coherent, a credible case) and prepare with a sense of urgency. A few weeks of nice presentation, might bring small signs of momentum and then as soon as something comes by on the environment we jump ;)
If Libs internal polls had been encouraging, Dion would have voted no, the election buses would be gased up right now.
Obviously the numbers were poor.
Why would Libs ask Dion to lead his party off a cliff.
Save face? Who's? His own?
Once the 30 second 'principled' face saving and all the applause is over, then what?
You lose a bunch of seats and become a smaller voice for those "Canadians who don't want an election".
In defence of Dion, he was handed a party that has no direction, no discipline, and the Hatfields and McCoys still fighting it out in public.
Guys, Canadians will take another look at yah once you get your sh*t together.
And ranting that 'Harper Conservatives are destroying Canada' crap, just isn't selling (except to Lib supporters).
If it was, Dion would have voted 'no' .
Burli
If your in the media like you say that you are,you know that unnamed sources are essential to the press.
We are talking about here the Canadian press,its not the local neighborhood paper.
Do you really think that the Canadian press
would risk their reputation over this?
If this wasn't true then why didn't the liberals come out and say so.
They have no problem saying that,they are a united group everytime the press says that they are divisions with them.
Why aren't the liberals
willing to bring down the Conservatives then?
I'm from Quebec i live in Montreal liberals have huge problems here.
You said:
"There's already money in the bank for a Mike Harris leadership campaign. He's got a lease agreement with John Tory's bus people, according to this source, and he wanted to kick off the campaign in Kingston near the gravesite of John A. Macdonald.
It'll be in tomorrow's newspaper. Watch for it."
O.K so what I don't get it.
You mean to say that Harper was prepared for eventually election ?
"If Libs internal polls had been encouraging, Dion would have voted no, the election buses would be gased up right now."
LOL, and if the Con numbers were more encouraging, the throne speech would have had more poison pills than a Nazi gathering in Berlin, circa 1944. You guys are a riot.
As a side note, are the Tory blogs so boring that you two seem to LIVE on this side of the aisle. I don't know how you do it, I spend 15 minutes every few weeks, just for context, on your trainwreck blogroll and I feel like I need a shower afterwards.
Question A: Burl, is Harper planning to dance on that grave while he's there?
Question B: knb, what was good about Harpers speech from a left-leaning liberal's perspective?
Steve: Now that Dion has decided the course, we need to hammer these guys in Parliament, keep a zipper on the internal machinations, present a confident image, get some policy out (Dion had good themes today, very coherent, a credible case) and prepare with a sense of urgency.
I'm with ya.
Ryan, without going through the whole speech, what comes to mind is, the apology to aboriginals, the honourary citizenship of Aung San Suu Kyi and the funding of an Artic research centre.
There is plenty I am not enamoured with, including the crime bill, but the fact is most of it has passed already.
I think we are in for interesting times in Commons.
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