Saturday, August 18, 2007

The Security and Prosperity Partnership

This topic always generates controversy. It's one of those issues where supporters, casually dismiss the concerns of dissenters. While I do not profess to understand everything entailed with SPP, it's clear that those who cheer lead the deal either don't get it at all or are content to accept it's ramifications.

Little is served by outrage in my opinion, but giving voice to concern is necessary. Stephane Dion came out with a Blueprint for the upcoming meeting at Montebello and given what it is meant to do, communicate that he is watching and concerned, it's a good document. He's also showing that he isn't in the least worried about speaking up to the US, if elected. Now, that may lead to the US helping Harper even more during the next election, but so be it.

As for SPP itself, I do have many concerns. I don't know if the bulk water exportation fear is founded or not. The fact that the pat answer seems to be, "it's not on the agenda", means nothing to me. If you've been to large forums in the course of your career, you know full well that the formal Agenda reflects but a small portion of what goes on. All that would be considered "unfit for the masses", is not disclosed, but discussed in detail.

On it's surface, I suppose you could explain away why SPP makes sense, looking deeper though, there are many issues. Sovereignty, of course not being the least of them. Traditionally, sovereignty would suggest that a country has full independence on foreign and domestic policy. This agreement turns that on it's head. That included in the equation is a country that holds so much power, seems ludicrous, is ludicrous in my view.

Furthermore, whenever you enter into such agreements with countries of differing standards, it is inevitable that in order to get agreement, you must bow to the lowest common standard in order to include them. Witness the acceptance of the government willing to accept crops from the US, that contain higher levels of pesticide than we require here...they are intent on raising our levels at a time when we should be reducing them.

There are many more issues, but perhaps the largest, is the fact that the government is not accountable to the House, nor is the US government accountable to the Congress. In our systems we have checks and balances, designed to prevent such unaccountable activity. They are being ignored and that is wrong.

Whatever else the SPP evokes in you, you should at least be demanding accountability.


Anonymous said...

This is for the conspiracy theories.Now
about the bulk water exportation fear is founded or not. Here is the
I know that I will not convince any of you skeptics,but its worth a
shot just read the link.

knb said...

As conservatives go, Pollievre is about the last person I'd listen to. He's a chidlish bully and said nothing to dispute the accusation. Point of fact, people I know who have met him, and they aren't political, have told me what a jerk he is.

As I said, I'm not sure it's on the table, water, but it's not out of the realm. Barlow does have some crazy ideas, but she is not to be dismissed. She knows her stuff and to suggest otherwise is foolish.

And that site, please. When you have to get your message through by way of a dog, there is a problem.

Anonymous said...

Like i said i new that
I was not going to convince anyone,but i had to try;) You don't expect me to take seriously anything The Council of Canadians,Maude Barlow
included right? They don't like NAFTA. The very agreement that gave us today a strong economy.

wilson said...

Water is a natural resource, (a Provincial jurisdiction in the Constitution) and every province, except New Brunswick, has legislation to prohibit exporting bulk water.

I don't see how ANY Federal Gov't (even a majority Harper gov't, because we know that's on
the Libs fearmongering agenda) could sell Canada's water to ANYONE, without a Provincial agreement.

And then there is the International Boundary Waters Treaty Act/Regulations. Look it up.

Both US and Canadian representatives have said bulk water is NOT up for discussion.
But Dion says his 'secret source' tells him there is a conspiracy and US/Harper reps are liars.

IMO Libs (Dion) have pushed the 'evil American/evil Harper' thing over the line on this one.

Dion alined the LPC with the enviro activists (tho it seems he has dropped his 'everything green' thing), and now the SPP conspiracy activists...

Liberals (Chretien) campaigned against NAFTA, once in power he signed it; campaigned against the GST, once in power kept it and in 05/06 campaigned against Harpers policy to reduce the GST (too funny); the same will be the Liberal way with SPP, Liberals signed it, then campaign against it, Libs will be for it when they are not against it, just like the Afghan combat mission Libs (Martin/Graham) sent our brave Canadians on...

Anonymous said...

Again, it's obvious people choose NOT to listen, even the MSM. I watched Dion's press conference and when asked about the water issue - Dion said that when he was Minister of International Affairs there were "strong" lobbying going on by American lobbyist trying to get our water.

johnny - do really expect to get the total facts from the CPC website? Are you that naive?

Secrecy - yes. Are any journalists, leaders of opposition parties or any other member of parliament allowed to join and/or listen in? NO - therefore, it is in "secret".

How dumb can people be.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:14(a.m):

"johnny - do really expect to get the total facts from the CPC website? Are you that naive?"

Anon do you really think you can get the total Facts from the Liberal Party website were corruption is still going on till this day?

You said:
"How dumb can people be." I will throw it back in your face. How can you or anyone vote for a Party that have robbed you (us tax payer) blind?
Would you let your friend
back in your house after it was discovered he/she
has stolen from you? Now this would be Dumb and naive,but you will not get it your to far gone on the left dumb and naive,but your also a coward by not signing your post!! I don't need to be lectured from you anon.For some reason your afraid to sign your post!!!

About Secrecy have you ever been involved in meetings before? This is how the real world works get used it,but you will not get it. Have you ever been in negation before? If you have then you know strategy is always behind closed doors. Was the media or the public at the meeting or negotiating table when Paul Martins Liberals negotiated the Atlantic Accord? We only found out about the deal when it was done!! Just look at NAFTA when it was negotiated,it was behind
closed doors. The public was not invited at the negotiating table now were they? The government
can't sell bulk water without going to Parliament. Wake up and wise up. Some people are really dumb and naive!!

Anonymous said...

Wilson (12:02)I agree
with you its amazing how
some on the left would
believe anything as long its against this government. If they were able to get away with it they would say the sky is green just because Harper
says its blue. They have no problems in believing
The Council of Canadians,(Maude Barlow)
a group so far left that if they would go more left they would end up back where they started. Their word is golden for some on the left.

knb said...

wilson and john, Dion has not said he against the SPP. He is against it's current configuration. The lack of transparency and ommission of ALL voices on the issues. That is not how it was envisioned to operate intially. It was meant to be made up of many roundtables, with different voices, so common issues could be agreed upon in a go forward manner.

As it stands, it's made up of only like minds and what they discuss and what they agree upon is not brought forward to the House, nor the Congress.

It's not tough to figure this one out for heavens sake. 3 oh so right wing leaders, none of whom ever take advice from anyone outside their circle, sees a need for transparency.

Are the two of you suggesting that there is no lobby for bulk water in the US?

Anonymous said...


"It's not tough to figure this one out for heavens sake. 3 oh so right wing leaders, none of whom ever take advice from anyone outside their circle, sees a need for transparency."Common please just because they
on the right Mexico Pres. I'm not sure.That they are trustworthy.I could bring lots of reasons not to trust the Liberals,but you don't want to hear it
so please!

"Are the two of you suggesting that there is no lobby for bulk water in the US?" No I'm not
suggesting that KNB. I'm
sure you know there is a lobby for everything you could imagine. After Wilson post is post i did
a research on bulk water . There is international
agreements on bulk water in which can't be sold the way you think and also our provinces have
laws against selling bulk
water but of course nothing I've said will get threw to you because a right winger is saying it. Remember the same thing even worse when
NAFTA was being negotiate it wasn't open to the public was it. Remember
the bad press the big demonstrations that were
going on the Liberals were saying they were going to tear the deal.No
I'm not saying that he is against SPP. What I'm saying is that he is playing to the public for votes,because its political correct to do so every time a Pres. from the U.S. comes here for an official trip.

knb said...

I'm well aware that there are treaties in place. Kyoto is one that is not being respected, for example.

The process of discussion of the issue is not outside the realm of to achieve it would come later. Bush and Harper are two men who ignore their word to others, so I have no problem believing they'd find a way.

I never said what Dion was saying wasn't political, he's the leader of the opposition, that is his job. Harper rode Chretien and Martin every step of the way, that's what the opposition does. Harper vehemently criticised Chretien for not going to Iraq. That was political and stupid. Come to think of it, I've never heard him say that was a mistake.

Anyway, all Dion is doing is keeping an eye on the government as he should. He's bringing up issues that deserve watching, stating his position and making that clear to the government and the public.

Bush, Harper and Calderon are way right of centre, and of course most Canadians are not. Way right of centre means a very specific agenda and Dion is pointing that out, as he should.

If 66% of the population suddenly shifts to support Harper's views, so be it, but they deserve to know what they are getting, because in part, (not all), that would be what the US has right now.

As for me, if that happens, I'll have to find a new country to live in, ;).

Anonymous said...

KNB I think were going in circles on this subject.I'm
just waiting to see what you have to say on your next subject until the then peace out;)

wilson said...

'Dion said that when he was Minister of International Affairs there were "strong" lobbying going on by American lobbyist trying to get our water'

Oh My Gawd, Anon you just outed Dion's 'source', himself!

What Dion is doing is not being a constructive opposition leader,
he has gone straight into election fearmongering:

''Don't give Harper a majority or he will sell Canada's water to Bush.''
Do I smell fear?
Like Martin's 'not withstanding clause' silliness?

Lizzy May must have made him do it.

knb, you do understand that Provinces have the CONSTITUTIONAL right to their resources.??
And there is NO Federal Government and NO Prime Minister that can sell a provinces resources without Provincial LEGISLATIVE consent, no matter how many 1/2 truths May/Barlow/Dion put out there...

The facts will get out, and Dion will be sent back to his foxhole.