Sunday, August 05, 2007

This Was a Surprise


Breaking with his colleagues, conservative journalist Lorrie Goldstein actually recognises the real Stephane Dion.
To any Conservative (or Liberal) who thinks this guy isn't tough enough to be prime minister, maybe you'd better think again.
He doesn't follow the pack of sycophants that prefer to present a false image of the man, but instead he suggests, rightly so, that he's not to be taken for granted. In fact, he goes further and suggests that underestimating him would be a mistake. What he say's about Dion, doesn't surprise me, but that he is giving this warning, does.
In one sense, having Conservatives underestimate this man, is an asset for the Liberals, but to be honest I'd prefer to raise the bar and actually debate the issues. If more conservative journalists actually take Mr. Goldstein's advice and take a serious look at Dion, the debate may be elevated out of Kindergarten and people may actually listen to what is important.
With any luck, they'd finally realise that Mr. Harper is not a Conservative, but actually a Reformist and what that really means for the country.
I think the Conservatives are too far gone though, in their juvenile style of debate, to really change. However, more articles like this simply reveals them for what they are.
Once again, I live in hope.

19 comments:

Anonymous said...

KNB no one is underestimating Dion here! What the left is saying about this government is that everything they do
its terrible.Why is it then the Liberals don't try to overthrow this government? Lets go back to pre-election 2006.When
Paul Martins Liberals were having problems Stephen Harper (Cons.) was able to get the support of the Separatist
(Bloc)and the left wing (NDP),to bring down the government of the day talk about strange bed fellows but he was able to do it,even though Paul Martin was able to
save is government by a couple of months in buying Belinda Stronach
vote (I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT SHE GETS THREW THIS TERRIBLE DISEASE WITH FLYING COLORS)but the invetiable still happened. Another reason that Harper is a smart man is when last fall he was able to extend the afghan mission
until Feb 2009 with about
20 to 30% support of the Liberals in the house.

Now you mentioned that:"Mr. Harper is not a Conservative, but actually a Reformist and what that really means for the country."
First of all the reformist were Conservative that is why
when the P.C. Canadian Alliance / Reformist joined forces the P.C had
to take out the letter (P)and just leave Conservative remember ?

You also mentioned:
"I think the Conservatives are too far gone though, in their juvenile style of debate, to really change. However, more articles like this simply reveals them for what they are. Once again, I live in hope." In this comment you should have replaced the word Conservative to
left wing,because it fits
very well with the left you should really read and hear what the left is saying.

Thank You:
John

Anonymous said...

Or, is Goldstein trying to keep Liberals hoping so they won't get another leader?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous funny ;)LOL

John

wilson said...

It's about time somone in MSM writes with 'respect' for the subject.
IMO there is no fear of the PMO underestimating Dion.
After 13 years in opposition wilderness, PMSH will not underestimate anyone/thing Liberal.
Libs have yet to learn that lesson about PMSH.

When most minority governments have a shelf life of 14-18 months, this Conservative minority appears to be going for a full term (just like PMSH said when he took office).

Gee, how'd he do that?

Being the ONLY party on the right, and his war with MSM (who say they can 'make or break a politician'), how is it PMSH and his govenment seem to be under NO threat of being brought down anytime soon?
(hint..Dion is not the problem, wouldn't matter who was Lib leader)

Anonymous said...

Wilson I'm responding to your 9:16 a.m. post isn't typical about the left always bashing our P.M. Stephen Harper
calling him all kinds of
names on the left wing
blogs and also calling
him a fool? How can a
fool is able to get the Bloc and the NDP to
bring down the government? How can a fool is able to last this
long in a minority government? It seems that it will go the full term. How can a fool with the bad press in Atlantic Canada and the Afghan situation still be in power,and the Libs with Dion can't seem to take advantage of it? Oh wait i know it is because
Dion is still unknown this is the excuse the left wing blogs are using;)This is who the left wing blogs calls a fool imagine it's just amazing to me of the hate
they have at our PM they can't see clearly.

John

burlivespipe said...

All the opposition parties, for various reasons, are playing a waiting game. Financially and strategically, for the Libs its better (at least in a 'win election' target) to aim for fall-winter vote, while the NdP are also like the grits needing time to build up their funds. The Bloc was damaged by the provincial scene, and is aware that the electorate in their province is very volatile, that the CONs are creating new schisms among their traditional votes.
Don't pretend that the CONs didn't play the exact same thing. Harpor in opposition was pure power hungry to create an election throughout the term, not concerned with the operation of the country (except that it was in the hands of liberal minds - hmm, how funny things change)... Never mind that the populace by a large margin didn't want an election. It could be said that the voters are not ready for one yet, and all the polls suggest that little would change.
But it is to laugh to hear you paint only your guy as the 'wise man' and the strategic genius. Harpor has stepped in a fair amount of cow patties, made some back pedalling and gone through a massive remake to CON the people. And now you've got lyin' Flanagan saying that the 'New Gov't' has only put budgets as a parliament breaker. Whot? Where was he back a year ago when Harpor said 'You vote down our softwood (giveaway) deal with the US and that's an election', and 'You vote against our (un)accountability act and that's an election!'... He's so full of crap it makes me yearn for the days of crooked Bryan...

Scotian said...

burlivespipe:

You vote against the 2 year Afghanistan extention and I extend it one year and force and election over the issue...

Anonymous said...

Burlivespipe you mentioned:"Financially and strategically, for the Libs its better (at least in a 'win election' target) to aim for fall-winter vote, while the NdP are also like the grits needing time to build up their funds." Why is this you think ?
Why is it the Cons.don't
have financial problems coperations can only give $1,000 to any one parties the last time i checked the Cons.have raised $8.9
million from 82,000 donors. The NDP raised $1.96 million from 26.555 donors and the Liberals who raised only $1.79-million from 14,316 donors, according to figures released by Elections Canada last week. Now imagine this the Liberals were out done by the NDP who could have thunk it;)Now why do you think this has happened? Is it because the people don't buy the spew that is coming out of the Liberals and the NDP hmmmm ? Here more details from:
nationalnewswatch.com/

The figures indicate the Conservatives, led by Prime Minister Stephen Harper (Calgary Southwest, Alta.) raised $5,176,736 from 45,192 donors in the first quarter from January to March 2007 and $3,768,122 from 36,794 donors in the second quarter from April to June.

The NDP, led by Jack Layton (Toronto Danforth, Ont.) raised $1,237,972 from 14,782 donors in the first quarter and $722,760 from 11,773 donors in the second quarter.

The Liberals, led by Stéphane Dion (Saint-Laurent-Cartierville, Que.) raised $531,141 from 4,365 donors in the first quarter and $1,268,043 from 9,951 donors in the second quarter.

Now about the bloc it was first damaged by Stephen Harper Cons. by winning their seats during the last federal election and the rise of the right of ADQ on provincial scene,yes i said the right!!

Scotian said...

" You vote against the 2 year Afghanistan extention and I extend it one year and force and election over the issue..." This is called smarts,because what he (Harper)has done is force
Dion to a corner,and force him to go along until Feb 2009. The Liberals now can't reap the benefits because of it.

John

Anonymous said...

Financially in the past
6 months only.

John

knb said...

burlivespipe is correct. All parties have reasons to avoid an election at the moment.

When most minority governments have a shelf life of 14-18 months, this Conservative minority appears to be going for a full term (just like PMSH said when he took office).

Gee, how'd he do that?


Gee, because he has benefitted by the circumstances of the day? Has there been another minority government faced with an opposition without a Leader for 12 months? Was that opposition faced with national scandal?

The ability to not only re-write history, but recreate the relative present, seems to be a talent that the right strive for.

Good one Scotian!

For the record, I don't recall anyone here, calling Harper stupid or more specifically, unintelligent. To the contrary, I think the man is quite intelligent.

What I do suggest is that he has limited his view of the world through a very narrow ideaological lens and that prevents him from appealing to the masses, without great compromise. Many conservative writers have spoken to the fact that he has compromised his ideals and they are not happy either.

The point of the post was to point out the fact that a conservative journalist, is speaking to the strategy by Harper and co., to diminish Dion's intelligence, through the juvenile ad campaign. He's saying it'll come back to bite him as Dion becomes more exposed.

The con's on this thread are buying Harper's strategy..fine by me.

With every day that passes, true conservatives, are suggesting that Harper is not one who walks among them. Again, fine by me.

Will they have the courage to speak out during an election? I can't tell at this point, for their goal is to appoint a true conservative, not a Reformer/neo-con wanna be. Do they risk the defeat of Harper by adding their voice? Maybe, because a new Leader will be appointed...but we all know that it takes time to develop crediblity, (a whole other post). Perhaps they will damage him just enough, in terms of providing guidance, in an attempt to give him another minority, which will also oust him as leader.

Time will tell...you know where my hope lies.

Anonymous said...

KNB I'm responding to your 5:47 p.m. post:

"For the record, I don't recall anyone here, calling Harper stupid or more specifically, unintelligent. To the contrary, I think the man is quite intelligent." Your right KNB no one on your blog that i recall has called Harper stupid i certainly didn't say this in my post.But you
have stated in the past that he is a fool this was my point on my 12:29
p.m. post.

You also mentioned:

"With every day that passes, true conservatives, are suggesting that Harper is not one who walks among them. Again, fine by me. "That maybe true i don't
know. But i don't have any reason to doubt you on this,but you know that if it is true those people you are talking about are surly not going to vote for the Libs or the NDP and this is a fact and we all know this! The same can be said about Dion at least
this is what the NDP (Layton)is saying. I have no problem with this i sure hope he continues saying it.

John

Anonymous said...

I meant to say that Layton keep saying that
the Liberals are to far
to the right.

John

knb said...

You're wrong John, ex-PC's are joining the Lib's and if the NDP posture is to put them in the middle, all the better, that is where they are.

Good news for the middle, bad for the far right and the left.

You have no appreciation of who Canada is. Who you defend, is not it and to be frank, I'm sick of arguing this point.

You're opinion holds about 30% sway. That's not going to change...it's fact. Drink as much Kool-Aid as you like, facts aren't shifted by sugar high's.

The man you adore, (isn't that pathetic), is leading you on a journey that leads nowhere. Go ahead, follow him. I've no doubt that you think he has good intentions. I'm not in least religious, but I do recall, "The path of good intentions...leads to Hell"

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, I do believe in making a difference now.

Scotian said...

KNB:

Thanks, not that it was a difficult shot to make, as I actually pay attention to reality and facts unlike some folks. I see you are noting the same issues with John that I have, and that trying to treat someone like that with any good faith will only come back to bite you in the rear because unlike you he does not argue in good faith, nor for that matter does he deal in reality. As you noticed there is a strong tendency for such folks to engage in revisionist history, and not terribly subtle revisionist history at that. Those that refuse to deal in fact can by definition never be truthful, as one is reliant upon the other.

As to the topic of your post, that was an interesting read and a fairly perceptive one as well. Dion's low popularity numbers are far more as a result of lack of exposure as the leader than anything else, and those consoling themselves with his supposed unpopularity had best remember where Harper's was six months before he won the last election. This is one of the main reasons I find the massive constant focusing on Dion's unpopularity as if it were some sort of impossible impediment to overcome particularly hilarious. I also find the idea that Dion is not politically astute equally hilarious given his background professionally and his clear history of very intellectually adept writings. More, unlike Harper he is not uncomfortable socializing with people, and that shows, while Harper is clearly uncomfortable with "average folks". Finally, the efforts the CPC goes to to try and discredit Dion as a leader actually shows they fear Canadians would see him as such without taking such extraordinary measures as attack ads outside an election cycle, and don't think that doesn't get noticed by voters either.

Personally for me so long as Harper and his strain of Conservativism is decisively defeated I don't care that much whether it is Layton or Dion, although between those two I am more inclined to trust Dion's priorities than Layton's given what I have seen from him in the last two years. Still though even at his worst Layton doesn’t come close to be the threat to the long term viability of this nation that Harper represents. At least Layton's political beliefs are rooted in a Canadian tradition unlike the Harper CPC and the Calgary School and its Straussian foundation.

Anonymous said...

KNB

"You have no appreciation of who Canada is. Who you defend, is not it and to be frank, I'm sick of arguing this point."
What is the problem with you that you need to be insulting please tell me
if you can, if your capable? You may not be
religious but i am.

By telling me this it's a great insult to me:
"The man you adore, (isn't that pathetic), is leading you on a journey that leads nowhere. Go ahead, follow him. I've no doubt that you think he has good intentions. I'm not in least religious, but I do recall, "The path of good intentions...leads to Hell"

Are you capable of having a civil conversation with people who disagree with you political or not? You know it's amazing to me
how some people on the left when they are confronted they react angrily and start to insult you. I'm sorry to disappoint you but i will always contradict you and anyone else when i feel they are wrong whether they like it or not!!
I think you have had too
much of Kool-Aid,your becoming a Kool-Aid coholic.

John

knb said...

Are you capable of having a civil conversation with people who disagree with you political or not?

I think I've proved I am more than capable. I grow weary of arguments from the right, (the far right like you), that suggest that all who fall left of their way of thinking, are the same and worse yet, far left. That's obviously not true and it's juvenile method, to me, to address the issues.

If you understand the political spectrum, suggesting that the Liberal Party is far left, is ridiculous. Great sound bites, but shallow logic.

If the common expression I cited, offended you, that was not my intention and to be frank, I don't know how it could?

Weren't you the one to say, don't take things personally?

John, it's clear, you do adore Harper. No matter how many mistakes he makes, you continue to support, without having an objective view of the issue.

66% of the country disagrees with you and him. I know you want to change that, but to coin a phrase, "it ain't happenin", much to my delight of course.

Anonymous said...

Knb:

"If you understand the political spectrum, suggesting that the Liberal Party is far left, is ridiculous. Great sound bites, but shallow logic." When did i ever suggest that the Liberals are far left? They are surly left of center!!

About the Cons.being
far right c'mon please!!
Yes they are right of center,but not far right
sorry;)

The majority of the people disagree with the Cons. just like they disagree with the Libs and the NDP. But you have to look at system of government we have just like the Cons. proved last year 36% is enough to govern!! I also seen
a poll early this summer
that said the people that
vote Liberals 30% would vote Conservative as their second choice. I know that your on the left but you can't be happy with what is going on with the Liberals they are having a though time
trying to fill the Halls
while the Cons. are packing them. No hard feels!! Let bygones be bygones ok. I know i've
said it a million but i'll say it again i truly
like your blog;) I just hope that we can find some common ground beside
loving our country political that is;)

John

Scotian said...

"66% of the country disagrees with you and him. I know you want to change that, but to coin a phrase, "it ain't happenin", much to my delight of course." KNB 6:32 PM

KNB:

Actually it is changing thanks to the efforts of Harper and his cheerleaders, except the numbers opposed/disagrees are increasing, not decreasing overall. As for this ludicrous notion of John's that you do not handle disagreement/dissent from your own POVs at all well, classic and time worn tactic from the GOP and imported by their counterparts within Canada this is, nothing more and nothing less. After all, anyone that is not in agreement with Harper and his vision for Canada is clearly a far lefty by definition and there is of course no important differences/distinctions to be made since no matter by how much/little they are wrong simply because they disagree with what the Leader says is true and they (all lefties) are the "enemy" (as opposed to respected opponents, you know the traditional Canadian way of seeing one's political opposition no matter what party, even the BQ despite the fact being their sole purpose is to aid in the destruction of Canada as a united nation) in the total war/culture war approach to politics that Harper has clearly taken and John appears to be a willing foot soldier for.

John should try his act over at Red Tory's, since there is a blog where honest disagreement and reality based differences (as opposed to beliefs and truthiness) is more than welcome. I suspect though he will be unable to see the reality (or admit to it, either way the effect in terms of his writings are the same) and repeat the process he has followed here. I mean really, he clearly picked a fight with me hoping I would get in the mud with him, he gets called on it, you decide to stand up for me by your own choice and initiative, he doesn't take that too well, and he continues to get huffy with me (including for not answering a question of his fast enough to suit him, as if my online schedule revolves around answering his questions, a clear sign of hubris in action) and we end up with me telling him not to expect any direct (as in addressed to him) response to anything he asks or says to me and now he claims you are unable to handle dissent/differences of opinion without getting all emotional and unreasonable. This despite his own writings are the ones most clearly emotionally loaded, classic projection, another GOP/movement conservative tactic (either from genuine psychological basis or because it is a way of deflecting from ones own use of this tactic by claiming your enemy does so and did so first therefore anything done in response is simply self defence) in action.

I mean really, John resembles more and more one of the many American GOP Trolletariat members from places like Political Animal at Washington Monthly, Huffington Post and unfortunately these days the Globe and Mail's comments section. Yet you are supposed to be the one causing all this dysfunction in dialogue? You are the one stifling real debate and being intellectually dishonest (which if you are not open to any dissent/disagreement is a fair use of the description) and poor John is the victim of some unfair, unreasonable and nasty/ugly personal attacks instead of being welcomed by you or others within your commentators (perhaps yours truly)? Wow, the level of delusion within this behaviour is rather clear and therefore I am left wondering whether John is honestly the way he appears or whether this is a mask/front put on by someone that understands exactly what they are doing and enjoys doing it for whatever reason and knows it works better if one appears to be doing it out of actual belief (no matter how wrongheaded) than being a manipulative argue anything if it is useful to you intellectually dishonest SOB. I honestly have no idea which in his case, and frankly I don't really care, as either way at this point the effect is the same in terms of my response, refuse to engage until signs of actual intellectual honesty appear instead of this parroting of Sandra Buckler's talking points approach.

Well, no doubt I will have encouraged an angry response; the only question I suspect is what format it will take. I am sorry for extending this as far as I have and by including you indirectly by speaking about this directly to you here, but in many ways this example is one of exactly the kinds of duplication into our political realities I have warned of for years now and as I know you have seen me state in the past. The political caricatures that such folks paint of their many opponents/enemies and the heroic portraits they cast of their leader(s) and the great and wonderful vision they will shape Canada to are literally cartoonish in their simplicity and about as accurate a description of reality as cartoons (not high class animation, old style cartoons from say 25-30 years and farther back, before the microcomputer and CGI really changed the nature of the word/concept). How can one ever really have a serious political discussion with someone that describes the world around them in such a manner, especially when they allow the inevitable misperceptions thinking in such terms inevitably will create (Liberal media myth anyone?) to be proven fact despite the lack of actual hard compelling evidence that would satisfy a disinterested person as opposed to a partisan? You can't, and the worst thing is, if they are genuinely this way and not a front then they are effectively unreachable because until they are willing to re-examine the way they filter/process incoming information/data it doesn’t tend to matter what is provided since it never gets to the processing core of the mind to begin with.

He represents a pattern that has become increasingly common in the American right and has clearly migrated within the Reformist elements of the CPC (which is basically the leadership and at least a supermajority of the caucus let alone formal party members), and now we have to wonder how many of the John's out there are genuine and how many of them are counterblogging operations also modeled on the ones the GOP has run for several years now in the USA. This is what Dion and the Liberals are facing (since Harper and the CPC clearly see him/them as the greatest threat to their hold on power as demonstrated by their actions of single-minded focus on trying to discredit/destroy Dion) and by their own bragging the CPC has money to throw around at the moment (and is clearly willing to do so to attack Dion and the Liberals as seen by the several attack ad campaigns in the past eight months) one cannot afford to assume these folks are playing by any Canadian rules of etiquette (hopefully they are still within the law, but given the level of contempt we have seen them display for laws that they find restrictive that is also not something to be blithely presumed) and are instead willing to do "whatever it takes" to save Canada form the doom the lefties/Liberals will wreak upon it if put back in power, especially before Harper and the CPC can "fix" the "damage" done by 13 years of Liberal government.

Sorry about the topic drift, I have had a long day and little sleep from the night before. I hope you found it of interest and worth considering, and while I know from your response at 6:32 pm you don't really need to be told this it is John that is living in fantasy land regarding who is unable to deal with dissenting/differing POVs and not you. You are one of the better grounded people I have encountered in the Canadian blogosphere and have certainly shown both a keen awareness of reality as well as the unique differences where you disagree with those you agree with on other significant/serious/important issues, same as myself, same as RT, same as most of the online community outside the ideologues and the zealots whatever their respective brand/flavour (alas too many of them being of the Blue Kool-Aid flavour). I haven't been writing to many blogs over the past couple of months, but I always read here and leave a few here and there because I think well of your blog and what counts most on it, the quality of your thinking and your intellectual honesty and personal honour as a person. Something the Trolletariat can never truly understand let alone appreciate.

This is likely my only post for the night, so take care and see you tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

Scotian you said that you were not going to answer my post anymore,thats fine no problem with that. If your going to talk about my post do it the honest way,not the dishonest way your doing now.By talking to KNB using my post has a third person;)

John